Author Topic: The Psi-Juggernaut  (Read 5645 times)

TheLastRoyalPhoenix

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The Psi-Juggernaut
« on: March 30, 2020, 07:22:24 pm »
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgcDAw0DCgcAAAAAAAAASl8AAFRnLEtZcMKgwqDCoDEASytQCCwUKmVVwodmXy4fwoRiKcKyworCncKubRps4qK1AuKpogbiq4YF4qyDAt-_

I've created this build because I've seen a few psychosis builds and they all seem to play the same. They all maximize damage through crits and are effectively glass cannons as a result. That is fine and a valid way to play. However, builds like that play on the knife's edge. They require a lot of prior knowledge of the game to be used enjoyably and most new players can not really use them for a first playthrough. Most crit psi builds rely on dropping everything turn 1 before anyone can get a shot on them by having obscene damage. This build takes the opposite approach. The damage from crits is decent but not insane. Most psi crit builds go overboard with damage for the expressed purpose of getting through dominating difficulty enemies. Now we can have a discussion on the merits of the dominating difficulty on another thread, but this is an attempt to make a fun build for normal difficulty that someone new or old could pick up and have a fun time. I admit that build is not efficient and probably never will be. You can not really beat a build that runs around at 1% hp finishing the final boss in one round for efficiency. However, I suppose my entire point is to make a fun build that works. I am uploading this so that others may see it, use it, and/or tweak the skill points and feats to be better used. I am not an expert player, but I am not a complete newbie so the build should at least be functional in theory. All advice is welcomed.

P.S. This was built for oddity xp. I prefer to build it this way because: 1. Loot is love, loot is life 2. A lot of builds are just not valid for oddity because wasting points in non-necessary skills like lockpicking, hacking, and persuasion are not efficient for classic xp.

TheAverageGortsby

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Re: The Psi-Juggernaut
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2020, 08:29:45 pm »
Seems a curious choice to have a survivability-focused psi build with TC and 10 Will, and then not pick up Locus of Control.  Even on Normal difficulty you'll occasionally get stunned, most likely.

Mantra really isn't worth it.  With Hemopsychosis in your build, you might be better off taking an Empowered feat, so you could spike damage on bosses/hard targets when you need to, and then still cast from your health pool on the following turn.

TheLastRoyalPhoenix

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Re: The Psi-Juggernaut
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2020, 08:49:18 pm »
Thanks for the tip. I somehow forgot that LoC existed. As far as mantra and the empowered feats, I would rather cut mantra for LoC and not take an empowered. I have never used one so I am unable to speak on their effectiveness, but I have used LoC and it is worth the trade.

Here is an updated build for anyone interested:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgcDAw0DCgcAAAAAAAAASl8AAFRnLEtZcMKgwqDCoDEAS1AILBQqZVXChyFmXy4fwoTCsmIpK8Kdwq5tGmziorUC4qmiBuKrhgXirIMC378

Also, if you had any ideas for what to cut in place for an empowerment however, I would love to see which feat and why.

TheAverageGortsby

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Re: The Psi-Juggernaut
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2020, 12:02:37 am »
Also, if you had any ideas for what to cut in place for an empowerment however, I would love to see which feat and why.
You can always drop Conditioning for something else.  No matter your build, no matter your CON, no matter your play style, Conditioning is always garbage and the mental gymnastics required to argue in its favor are Olympic-worthy. It isn't, technically, worthless because it does actually reduce damage, but it does it in the least meaningful way possible.  As far as survivability feats go, that's your weakest pick and if you wanted to try an Empowered feat, that's where I'd suggest you go to free up a feat.  But since you're not building for DOMINATING, you certainly don't need the Empowered feat, so you could keep Conditioning if you preferred it.

Black Angel

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Re: The Psi-Juggernaut
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2020, 03:26:59 am »
You can always drop Conditioning for something else.  No matter your build, no matter your CON, no matter your play style, Conditioning is always garbage and the mental gymnastics required to argue in its favor are Olympic-worthy. It isn't, technically, worthless because it does actually reduce damage, but it does it in the least meaningful way possible.  As far as survivability feats go, that's your weakest pick and if you wanted to try an Empowered feat, that's where I'd suggest you go to free up a feat.  But since you're not building for DOMINATING, you certainly don't need the Empowered feat, so you could keep Conditioning if you preferred it.
Would you kindly elaborate why is Conditioning 'always' garbage? Is it from how it works (iirc, reducing damage AFTER DT/DR)?

TheAverageGortsby

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Re: The Psi-Juggernaut
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2020, 04:47:46 am »
Would you kindly elaborate why is Conditioning 'always' garbage? Is it from how it works (iirc, reducing damage AFTER DT/DR)?
That's right.  There are basically three broad layers of damage reduction.  There's energy shields, armor, and finally player DR.  Since UnderRail isn't a PvP game we don't have to worry about huge Snipe/Ambush/Execute/TK Punch crits coming in on the player.  NPCs simply don't deal the kind of damage a highly optimized PC can do.

So, you get shot at and hit for 300 damage.  That's probably enough to be a problem, under most circumstances, for most builds.

Your energy shield is a decent one, nothing amazing.  It blocks 100 points of High speed damage, say.  200 gets through to armor.
Your armor - especially for the build linked here, a tanky sort - has pretty good DR and DT.  Maybe it's a good set of metal armor (boots, armor, helmet) with 80% total mechanical DR.  That's not amazing; we can get 95% pretty easily but let's assume you're just wearing good stuff, not end-game stuff.  160 damage is blocked by armor, and 40 points gets through to the player.
Now Conditioning takes 15%, maybe 20% (like in OP's build, it would be 20%) of that.  Conditioning just blocked 8 damage of that 300 damage shot.  That's never going to make or break a fight.  It's rarely going to make a difference of any sort.

The use case where Conditioning might make an actual difference is when you're taking a damage type that Conditioning does block, and you also happen to have no shielding or armor mitigation.  Then maybe it blocks a lot of damage.  But if you're taking a lot of damage that you don't have mitigation for, you're dead anyway.  Either you need to armor up, or you need to find a way to facetank less.

If the combat log showed what damage reduction is being applied, nobody would roll with Conditioning more than once.  It's just not any good in any way that makes a difference.

Black Angel

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Re: The Psi-Juggernaut
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2020, 06:04:34 am »
That's right.  There are basically three broad layers of damage reduction.  There's energy shields, armor, and finally player DR.  Since UnderRail isn't a PvP game we don't have to worry about huge Snipe/Ambush/Execute/TK Punch crits coming in on the player.  NPCs simply don't deal the kind of damage a highly optimized PC can do.

So, you get shot at and hit for 300 damage.  That's probably enough to be a problem, under most circumstances, for most builds.

Your energy shield is a decent one, nothing amazing.  It blocks 100 points of High speed damage, say.  200 gets through to armor.
Your armor - especially for the build linked here, a tanky sort - has pretty good DR and DT.  Maybe it's a good set of metal armor (boots, armor, helmet) with 80% total mechanical DR.  That's not amazing; we can get 95% pretty easily but let's assume you're just wearing good stuff, not end-game stuff.  160 damage is blocked by armor, and 40 points gets through to the player.
Now Conditioning takes 15%, maybe 20% (like in OP's build, it would be 20%) of that.  Conditioning just blocked 8 damage of that 300 damage shot.  That's never going to make or break a fight.  It's rarely going to make a difference of any sort.

The use case where Conditioning might make an actual difference is when you're taking a damage type that Conditioning does block, and you also happen to have no shielding or armor mitigation.  Then maybe it blocks a lot of damage.  But if you're taking a lot of damage that you don't have mitigation for, you're dead anyway.  Either you need to armor up, or you need to find a way to facetank less.

If the combat log showed what damage reduction is being applied, nobody would roll with Conditioning more than once.  It's just not any good in any way that makes a difference.
Barring the feats you mentioned, the scenario you put here is a rather specific instance, and not really common occurrence, don't you think? What about enemies with <Medium impact weapon damage, like melee and crossbows? What about characters who can't get the most out of heavy armor because being a hybrid of dodge-evasion and medium armor like riot armor/tactical vest/infused leather armors? What about metathermics casting psionics and azuridaes (although the most worry you'll have are Thought Control casters)?

But yeah, I can see where you're coming from. Mechanical damage is obviously the most common damage there is in the game. I don't know what's the second or third most common damage types, but Cold damage is the absolute most rare type there is, not counting a lot of hazardous environment instances that exists in both the base game and the DLC.

Going by this facts, Conditioning is actually a useless feat for heavy armor characters, which is weird considering both the feat and heavy armors synergize well with high CON. Maybe the numbers needs to be buffed, if Styg wants to keep the trio of mechanical, heat, and cold? Or keep the numbers, but adds (maybe) Bio, Acid, or Electricity, or a combination of 2 out of 3? Or add spec options to add those other damage types to the feat? Hell, maybe even restrict the Tempered veteran feats to having Conditioning as a requirement to make it desirable?

Carrying on my post to the topic of the thread, I planned to play a Tactical Nuke Battlemage of a sort in the future http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgQDAwoDDwgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGRkRi1kwqDCoMKgwqA3QWkrCFAsXwUUPSohwodlZsKIwoTCt3LCp-KitAHiorUC4qOIBeKsggXirIMC378
Building this character, I found much to my chagrin that you can't reinforce Metal Armors with Psi Beetle Carapace, and so I switched gears and made the character aiming to use Tactical Vest or even Riot Gear to withstand those pesky knifers. Still, Metal Armor PSI would probably be much more challenging in that you sacrifice Psi Beetle Carapace bonus for more efficient usage of Hemopsychosis, maybe even fully specced.

TheAverageGortsby

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Re: The Psi-Juggernaut
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2020, 07:47:56 am »
Barring the feats you mentioned, the scenario you put here is a rather specific instance, and not really common occurrence, don't you think? What about enemies with <Medium impact weapon damage, like melee and crossbows? What about characters who can't get the most out of heavy armor because being a hybrid of dodge-evasion and medium armor like riot armor/tactical vest/infused leather armors?
Most of the damage you'll take will go to your energy shield and disappear.  Most of the rest will go into your armor, unless you're just terrible at the game, because you'll set yourself up so that you only allow the attacks that your armor will mitigate.  For example, if you're a tac vest wearer, then you'll allow the pistol/SMG characters to live to the very end of the fight because they'll be doing 0s.  Riot gear?  Let the knife-wielders do their thing, it's no big deal.  Leather armor?  You'd better not be letting yourself get hit often or you're playing poorly and need to work on that, because leather armor is for mobile, far-field, or stealthy melee type characters.

No, I don't think it's unusual.  It's a case where enough damage hits you that it breaks through the two main lines of defense.  It shows how feeble that final line really is, but you can mix and match numbers to your choosing, if you feel I cherry-picked too much.

Barely out of Depot A, did the Maura quest, got those very basic shields and metal armors, then followed the rails to Rail Crossing and while exploring, opened that door and let the sniper take his shot?  How's that go?  300 damage again, but your shield only blocks 40, and your armor, basic as it is, is only giving you 30% DR?  Then 300 -> 260 -> 182.  Conditioning stops 36 then!  But you still took almost 150.  Either that was the only hit you took, in which case your Advanced Health Hypo fixed you up, or you took several hits and died anyway.  Either way, Conditioning still didn't make a difference, because it's such a small effect.

Your question about metathermics is exactly what I described in the second-to-last paragraph of the previous post.  It's where Conditioning looks as good as it can, but it still doesn't make a meaningful difference.  Though, of course, there's no reason to take metathermics damage before getting an energy shield, and even a basic energy shield will result in enemy metathermics doing very little damage to you, much like a shield damps the bite from frag grenades and mines.

If I were going to change Conditioning, I'd make it a Per + Agi + Con feat, and reduce its percentage reduced, but have it apply before shields and armor.  The idea would be, you know how to avoid the damage that comes in; you're not necessarily more inherently bulletproof, you're more adept at rolling with the hit, ducking slightly at the last moment, turning your armored shoulder into the bullet.  Such a feat, even if its percentage were small indeed, would act as a magnifier of both your shield and your armor, meaning it would be a defensive power multiplier.  It would let your shield last (slightly) longer, and would give your DT a tiny bit more opportunity to keep you safe.  It would, in that order, then be useful, if not necessarily terribly powerful.  But, your idea of tying it to Tempered obviously makes a lot of sense, too.

TheLastRoyalPhoenix

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Re: The Psi-Juggernaut
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2020, 03:01:00 am »
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgcDAw0DCgcAAAAAAAAASl8AAGRuM0tkwqDCoMKgRzEAS1AOLBQqZS5mIVUfwofChGLCssK4KSvCncKubRps4qGHAuKitQLiqaIJ4qyDAt-_

This is another update to the build. This build is the best case scenario for damage reduction feats: high con, a shield that blocks some damage and lets some through, and extremely high hp. Despite all this, I genuinely am convinced that conditioning and stoicism are a waste and could be better used. This frees up some feats from the original build. LoC and Empowered are definite choices, especially replacing mantra also, but this leaves 1 extra feat. So I think I am going to take doctor as this is build that could make use of it, but it is one that can be cut if there is a better option. Thoughts are appreciated.

Black Angel

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Re: The Psi-Juggernaut
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2020, 05:17:57 am »
Instead of Doctor, maybe take Iron Will to greatly boost your Resolve? Especially since the Thought Control tentacle of the final boss is arguably the most dangerous one.

ct5108

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Re: The Psi-Juggernaut
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2020, 02:43:58 am »
I'm a brand new player looking around at builds and this one caught my eye. Your link to your build has it at level 30, what do you recommend at level 1 and what do you recommend the general/overall progression to be from 1 to 30? I know that's quite a bit to ask for when you've already posted your build, but as a new player I'm not sure what is most important to grab first. Thanks.

TheLastRoyalPhoenix

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Re: The Psi-Juggernaut
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2020, 04:38:47 am »
Sorry for taking a bit to write this, but if you have not started yet, here is my advice. The feats are in order that I would suggest taking them. You have some wiggle room with 10, 18, 24, and 30. The rest are pretty important but you can replace them if you want. For stats, meet every final stat but Con when creating your character, so |7 3 3 Con 3 10 7|. As you level up, pump up con. For skills go for hacking, lockpicking, TC, PK, MT, persuasion, and mercantile first. Make sure to to have enough in TM to get the psycho-temporal acceleration feat. All the crafting skills should come later as that is when you get the few crafting feats for the build. As far as gear, go for psy beetle regen vest. The most important thing I would say is crafting for the build in the end game. You can make great gear, but meds really make the build. Make sure to farm the Foundry mine for bladdling eyes. Other than that, I'd change the build in removing specs from jugg to last stand length. I hope this was not written too late for you.

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?AQcDAwcDCgcAAAAAAAAADw8AAAAAAA8ADw8PAA8AD1AOK9-_
« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 04:45:07 am by TheLastRoyalPhoenix »