Author Topic: Thoughts on 5/5 spec'ed disassemble.  (Read 8440 times)

Tamior

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Thoughts on 5/5 spec'ed disassemble.
« on: December 01, 2019, 09:28:50 am »
I did some tests recently, and fully specialized (takes 5 specialization points) disassemble seems to work exactly as advertised: you can disassemble items without any quality loss.

Assuming you spec it as your first feat (so get it done as early as level 20), this has some really interesting implications:
1) all repairs for items you can disassemble are now essentially free (this includes repairs just to get max value when selling items)
2) you can adjust your equipment on the fly in the field: turn shield with low dissipation into shield with high capacity, change it's frequency, etc. Swap out mods on a weapon. Adjust psi-headband for different schools and abilities. Etc.
3) you can use high quality components to craft decent gear right away even if you don't have good components for all slots. As better components become available, you just swap them in.
4) even before you've fully spec'ed it, disassemble is really good for getting high value from selling loot (you can repair for free, assemble higher value items, change item types when vendor requires it and sell components when vendor refuses to buy crafted item).

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 09:34:11 am by Tamior »

cypherusuh

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Re: Thoughts on 5/5 spec'ed disassemble.
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2019, 10:43:45 am »
Still not worth imo.
1. When you need massive amount of advanced repair kit, you should be able to amass more money than you could ever use (other than waste it on jet-ski or fully refurbished home) so stocking tons of it wouldn't be a problem
2. Its a cool idea, but how often do you wanna reassemble these things without 15% crafting bonus (which also means you'll have to invest more on crafting skill)? For shield, depending on your gear and evasion, you shouldnt even need couple of shields (unless you really want to min-max for it), even then just craft 2 shield and bring both of em (preferably double high and double low)
3. This is a good point, for an extremely unlucky character. After you finished Oligarch (which I assumed a proper end-game prep), you should be able to find Q150+ components. And with the vast amount of shop in underrail, you should be able to find, or stock up ahead of time, all of your end-game mod setup.
4. Imo disassembling and selling each component is the better use for it, although with the amount of money you could get, you'll eventually just sell it dry without repairing it due to massive nerf on recycling.

Also, don't forget that you're essentially wasted 1 feat and 5 whopping specialization. Imo all crafting feat are pretty worthless unless on certain build (Bowyer, SS tincan, Chem, energy pistol)

Tamior

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Re: Thoughts on 5/5 spec'ed disassemble.
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2019, 11:34:28 am »
>When you need massive amount of advanced repair kit, you should be able to amass more money than you could ever use
Simply not true on dominating.
Even on a character with high mercantile and low ammunition consumption I'm regularly near-broke for the majority of the game.

>Its a cool idea, but how often do you wanna reassemble these things without 15% crafting bonus
It's not unusual to meet the requirements for crafting, for example, psi-bands without +15% bonus  after you've raised electronics high enough to craft end-game shield.

>This is a good point, for an extremely unlucky character.
Um, no?
It's completely normal to keep finding better and better components throughout the game. With disassemble you can swap them in as you find them.

>Imo disassembling and selling each component is the better use for it
At which point you are already half-way there as you've already taken the feat

Bruno

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Re: Thoughts on 5/5 spec'ed disassemble.
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2019, 11:42:12 am »
I have done the same analysis, and like the look of Disassemble.
Sure, it is costly in terms of speciaization, you are, in effect, specializing hard into being a crafting master. This is ok.

This plan is better for characters who use advanced armor, and advanced weaponry, obviously.
You cant disassemple leather armors, and clots becomes dirty rags unfortunately, so you cant reuse your high-quality fabrics in overcoats (unless I have totally forgot, been a whie since I did my tests)


The potential use for a dedicated crafter is great, you can stay on top of the power level curve and can happily use everything you find in DC.

cypherusuh

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Re: Thoughts on 5/5 spec'ed disassemble.
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2019, 12:00:03 pm »
I never played on Dom so idk how economy over there, and you didn't specify this thread refers to Dom difficulties.
But on that diff, idk what kind of build has enough spare skill, feat and spec point to take it, maybe Tranquility psi, since I assumed that you have to min-max over there.
Also on my 3rd point, what I meant was how easy it is to find and stock weapon mod for future crafting, and I think Styg did buffed chance to spawn "rare" weapon mod like Rapid Reload after CC update, so you don't have to disassemble and swap them. Plus, you don't really need to re-craft that often, especially on end-game setup
And my 4th point is for when you did took them, not a good point to took it, and as said, idk if it's worth a feat for Dom economy

Tamior

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Re: Thoughts on 5/5 spec'ed disassemble.
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2019, 12:14:29 pm »
>what I meant was how easy it is to find and stock weapon mod for future crafting, and I think Styg did buffed chance to spawn "rare" weapon mod like Rapid Reload after CC update
But that's exactly the thing: with perfect disassemble you don't have to wait for "future crafting". You can use rare and good mods right away, and simply take them out once you get better components.
Also, most components still have quality. Even if I find quality 140 components early in the game, I will likely find 145 later on, then 150, then 155, etc. with perfect disassemble you can just swap them in one by one as you find them.

chimaera

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Re: Thoughts on 5/5 spec'ed disassemble.
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2019, 03:30:08 pm »
Could be interesting on a high mercantile genius crafter character. Just call him Gilbert Bates. ;)

destroyor

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Re: Thoughts on 5/5 spec'ed disassemble.
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2019, 07:22:36 pm »
I think it's still a bad choice due to opportunity cost.

There are usually better feat choices than disassemble that would grant firepower and/or utility for any build. The 5 lost specialization points (SP) is especially painful. 5 SP could mean 25 ~ 200% lost critical damage bonus for crit build, major cooldown reduction like psi build, etc that couldn't be compensate by higher quality gears.

Tamior

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Re: Thoughts on 5/5 spec'ed disassemble.
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2019, 12:29:56 am »
Ok, let's talk actual builds.

This build here:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMDBwcDEAcAAAAoAABkU2QAADhUADA4S8KHRkYPAE8rDjk_FCodKFAhTcKEwocKEuKdtAPiorUC4qiSBd-_

(Given at level 25, so it has 3 more feats, 5 more SP and loads more skill points to spare.)
What exactly would you replace disassemble with, that has such noticeably "better opportunity cost"?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 12:32:28 am by Tamior »

destroyor

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Re: Thoughts on 5/5 spec'ed disassemble.
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2019, 01:22:40 am »
Ok, let's talk actual builds.

This build here:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMDBwcDEAcAAAAoAABkU2QAADhUADA4S8KHRkYPAE8rDjk_FCodKFAhTcKEwocKEuKdtAPiorUC4qiSBd-_

(Given at level 25, so it has 3 more feats, 5 more SP and loads more skill points to spare.)
What exactly would you replace disassemble with, that has such noticeably "better opportunity cost"?

In order of decreasing preference:
Thermodynamicity - Tran psi w/ psi cost reduction gear can spam ice + fire combo wiping everything in one turn.
Pyromaniac - for those sweet fear effect, very effective when combine w/ Thermodynamicity.
Meditation - a tran psi's limiting factor is psi pool, more psi = more psi ability spam.
Neural overclocking - just because you are going Tran psi route doesn't mean your psi won't crit.
Power Management - not as important for psi since you can just CC everything, but a bigger shield is always a plus.

As for the specialization points:
Exposed Weakness is ... questionable in this build. But if you are set on getting it I would get exposed weakness duration +1.
Hemopsychosis cooldown is what I would go for. But I will admit your build as is these two choices isn't *that* much better than 5 SP for disassemble.

cypherusuh

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Re: Thoughts on 5/5 spec'ed disassemble.
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2019, 01:35:51 am »
That's some very weird and weak-looking pure psi build. You sure it's viable even on hard? That's said, it does feasible to push disassembly in this case, even with good feat and spec allocated. That's said, I prefer spending my spare points for Force User, since it gives the highest damage bonus out of any psi spec

TheAverageGortsby

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Re: Thoughts on 5/5 spec'ed disassemble.
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2019, 08:23:42 am »
I prefer spending my spare points for Force User, since it gives the highest damage bonus out of any psi spec
Well, no. Thermodynamicity spec gives the highest damage increase of any psi spec, if you're just looking at raw numbers.  If you assume you have the psi reduction to afford the abilities, then there's no comparison. Thermodynamicity buffs Metathermics output almost (though admittedly not quite) as much as Locus of Control buffs TC output - and the only reason it's a lesser buff is that there are no fights in the game that go long enough for a max-output Thermodynamicity spam to benefit from the large difference in cooldown timers.  Even the Faceless invasions, or the Mutant horde down under the Institute, or Fort Apogee/Protectorate Docks in CC, or Grey Army maps, only have enough enemies to last two or three turns in a Metathermics blitz.

Force User spec is pretty nice, no doubt; not trying to suggest otherwise.  But it's not even close to close to what Thermodynamicity offers, from a raw damage output perspective.

Tamior

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Re: Thoughts on 5/5 spec'ed disassemble.
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2019, 09:20:54 am »
In order of decreasing preference:
Thermodynamicity - Tran psi w/ psi cost reduction gear can spam ice + fire combo wiping everything in one turn.
Pyromaniac - for those sweet fear effect, very effective when combine w/ Thermodynamicity.
Meditation - a tran psi's limiting factor is psi pool, more psi = more psi ability spam.
Neural overclocking - just because you are going Tran psi route doesn't mean your psi won't crit.
Power Management - not as important for psi since you can just CC everything, but a bigger shield is always a plus.

As for the specialization points:
Exposed Weakness is ... questionable in this build. But if you are set on getting it I would get exposed weakness duration +1.
Hemopsychosis cooldown is what I would go for. But I will admit your build as is these two choices isn't *that* much better than 5 SP for disassemble.
My problem with Thermodynamicity and Pyromaniac is that both are heavily random.
Pyromaniac is literally 50/50 coin-flip, Thermodynamicity requires some form of fire-based psi, and those either don't combine with ice (Thermo Destab), have intrinsic miss chance (Fireball) or are just plain too situational (Pyro Stream).
On tranquility psion I rarely find it optimal to alternate between fire and ice. 95% of the time I would prefer to either just spam ice, or use something from psychokinesis and/or thought control. Getting a good AP cost reduction on something I don't actually want to do most of the time (alternate between fire and ice, that is) is redundant.
But at any rate, you can just swap Thermodynamicity in instead of doctor (which is already a meme feat in that build).
Pyromaniac is simply not good if you are not willing to reload when it fails to proc at the critical moment.
Meditation with +psi pool feats and equipment from expedition is now 100% redundant.
Neural overclocking gives a tiny increase in actual damage on tranq build (completely unreliable, procs rarely and when it DOES proc it often just overkills, since the target would have died from normal crit just as well).
Power Management for larger shield size is QoL, since 99% of the time you don't actually try to face-tank damage for several turns in a row.

As for Exposed Weakness, that's just a meme feat for insta-kill combo with cryogenic induction and implosion. So duration on it is completely irrelevant, nothing will ever live for more than one turn when exposed.
 
TL;DR: Thermodynamicity might be ok (even if I don't find it useful for my play-style), but you can swap it in for Doctor. Everything else is either unreliable or redundant.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 09:43:03 am by Tamior »

Tamior

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Re: Thoughts on 5/5 spec'ed disassemble.
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2019, 09:29:25 am »
That's some very weird and weak-looking pure psi build. You sure it's viable even on hard? That's said, it does feasible to push disassembly in this case, even with good feat and spec allocated. That's said, I prefer spending my spare points for Force User, since it gives the highest damage bonus out of any psi spec
I'm playing with this build on dominating with permadeath (you can go to let's play section for a some videos on that). So it sure works just fine.
Heck, at this point playing with this build on dominating with permadeath without ever using force field, thermo destab or any traps. I.e. I have to literally handicap myself to get some decent tactical challenge out of it.

Tamior

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Re: Thoughts on 5/5 spec'ed disassemble.
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2019, 09:40:01 am »
Oh, and on a side-note: with 5/5 spec'ed disassemble you can swap damage-boosting components into your psionic headband on demand.
So you can get a flat +40%-ish extra damage to whatever ability you plan to spam in a given fight the most.