New Player looking for SMG build

[GawainBS]

Hey all,

I'd like to try this game with an SMG build, but I'm a bit in the dark about the path to take. I'd also like some conversational skills and crafting, if that's feasible. Any and all help would be appreciated.

P.S.: I googled about this kind of build, but I get all kind of contradictory information and not a lot of guides explain the "why" of things.

Thanks in advance!

[GawainBS]

I'm thinking about this for a starter build. Is it any good?

http://underrail.info.tm/?build=AwGloRhBmEA4QHYQFYk3RN4wi7yNfHYvbMg3U0BAFmCA

[Hazard]

I haven't played with an SMG build, so I don't have a recommendation right off the bat here. However, the most important thing in building an effective character is to consider what feats you want to take, as that tells you how you need to allocate your ability points at the start and what you're going to do with the one extra point you gain every fourth level.

[Altos]

I'm thinking about this for a starter build. Is it any good?

http://underrail.info.tm/?build=AwGloRhBmEA4QHYQFYk3RN4wi7yNfHYvbMg3U0BAFmCA

For a first playthrough, that's actually a pretty good build, and I'd probably run it myself. Your selection of Base Ability points seems fair given that you want to take Hacking, Lockpicking, and 3 of the Crafting Disciplines (always good for a first playthrough). Your Skill Points distribution is great, but I would encourage you to trade your 15 points of Chemistry for 15 points of Biology every level-up, so you can get the nice stat bonuses that the meds can provide you. Chemistry is mainly used for things like Mutant Dog Leather (which is pretty unnecessary once you get past Depot A), grenades (which will just get you killed if you have no throwing skill, especially considering you're gonna be up in all your enemies' faces all the time), and special bolts for crossbow builds.
Smart move taking Dodge over Evasion, considering that you're basically wielding a shotgun there.

As for your feats, I would suggest that you switch out both Conditioning and Paranoia for Suppressive Fire and either Opportunist or Gun Nut.*
You could also get Aimed Shot, as well, but for a SMG character that's obviously less important.

tl;dr: Switch your feats for Suppressive Fire and Gun Nut or Opportunist, and switch out Chemistry for Biology (unless you enjoy save-scumming every time you throw a grenade and blow yourself up).

*EDIT: Again, this is just a suggestion. Both Conditioning and Paranoia are actually some pretty good feats, and I can tell from your build that you're putting a focus on Initiative. While that is certainly useful, the fact that you can just initiate combat whenever you want and guarantee yourself the first attack simply by pressing ENTER kinda diminishes the usefulness of Initiative outside of giant group battles and the Arena. If you want to keep one, I would suggest you retain Conditioning and ditch Paranoia, just because you're unlikely to see stealthed targets before they see you unless you already know where they are or you have 10 Perception, which you don't need for a SMG build.

[Hazard]

I wouldn't take Conditioning, it's pretty bad with only 5 Constitution. The damage reduction it gives doesn't stack with armor resistance, instead it affects the damage that gets through your other defenses. It does become useful if you plan on actively using most of the other sources of damage reduction, like Morphine, Aegis drug, Lifting Belt and some others I forgot, then you can stack the reduction high enough that it becomes very good.

[hilf]

I wouldn't take Conditioning, it's pretty bad with only 5 Constitution. The damage reduction it gives doesn't stack with armor resistance, instead it affects the damage that gets through your other defenses. It does become useful if you plan on actively using most of the other sources of damage reduction, like Morphine, Aegis drug, Lifting Belt and some others I forgot, then you can stack the reduction high enough that it becomes very good.

Mushroow Brew, Stoicism, Ancient Rathound stuff. It can stack to 100% for a 2 rounds immunity to mechanical/cold/heat damage.

[GawainBS]

Thanks, this gave me a lot to take in. I selected Chemicals because I read that Grenades are kind of a must for this kind of build and planned on raising throwing later. However, Biology to get boosts sounds nice.
Regarding Conditioning, I thought it stacked with all other DR, hence my pick.

Tailoring allows crafting of ballistic vests, right?

Are Suppresive Fire & Opportunist useful straight away? Won't I run out of ammo?

How does INT figure in with crafting? I read you need 6 or 7 for crafting, but never a "why".

Are the crafting skills usable right away, or do they need more leveling first?

Also, would I need to keep raising these skills, or can I leave some skills after a while and pick up others?

Also, how useful/necessary is Stealth?

Thanks in advance!

[Altos]

Tailoring allows crafting of ballistic vests, right?

http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Blueprint:_Tactical_Vest
Yes. High Tailoring is also important for crafting Leather Armor, Riot Gear, Leather Boots & Tabi Boots, Balaclavas, and gloves for melee builds.

Are Suppresive Fire & Opportunist useful straight away? Won't I run out of ammo?

Yes, definitely. Ammo will be scarce for the first 7-ish hours (or until you get past Depot A), but if you make sure to purchase some from vendors every chance you get, and you complete sidequests and kill all the raiders you meet, you'll have enough to survive. Don't feel bad about purchasing ammo with your hard-earned credits. You will literally be swimming in money by the end of the game, since you're going to be (presumably) crafting almost all of your gear, anyway.

How does INT figure in with crafting? I read you need 6 or 7 for crafting, but never a "why".

You don't need high Intelligence for crafting. All Intelligence does is boost your effective crafting skills beyond what they would be if they were just based on the skill points that you manually invest in them alone. Basically, it gives you a leg up on your crafting and allows you, if you so choose, to put less skill points into all of your crafting disciplines, because your high Intelligence and the synergies between them will boost them up beyond what you invest.
So, it's very important, but not crucial. You can certainly survive as a crafter with 4-5 Intelligence, but your skill point distribution will suffer as a result.

EDIT: OH, and having a high Intelligence stat also unlocks a half dozen or so very useful crafting feats, but none of them are downright crucial, either.

Are the crafting skills usable right away, or do they need more leveling first?

The higher the quality of the components you are using for crafting, the higher the skill requirement. So, it might be a little while before you can actually craft a piece of armor or gear that is better than what you would find in the field, but you can still craft anything so long as you meet the skill requirement of the components. For example, a quality 20 Rathound Leather Hide requires a lot less skill points to be turned into Leather Armor than a quality 50 Hide. This will become more clear once you actually dive into the game.

Also, would I need to keep raising these skills, or can I leave some skills after a while and pick up others?

With a high Intelligence stat and the synergies between all of the crafting disciplines, you can avoid raising one of your crafting stats and so long as you can really beef up all the other disciplines, you can still accrue enough effective skill to produce some decent quality gear. Ultimately, how many skill points you invest into crafting should be a reflection of how high you want the quality of your gear to be.

EDIT: For example, even if you have a base Chemistry stat of 0, the synergies and Intelligence bonus (alongside other items or locations that boost your Intelligence stat) can give you even up to 60+ effective Chemistry skill, allowing you to crafting awesome grenades and decent Mutant Dog Leather Armor. Ignore me, I'm dumb.

And just because a piece of armor doesn't use quality 160 components doesn't mean it's not worth creating. Every little bit of DR helps.
Besides, you can totally make it through the game with zero crafting skill at all, so don't stress about it too much. Focus more on your damage-dealing and defensive skills before you put all your chips on your crafting skills.

Also, how useful/necessary is Stealth?

Stealth is extremely helpful for any build, regardless of player experience or skill, but it is not strictly necessary to put skill points into it to complete the game. Certain quests will be a lot easier if you can stealth, yes, but you can just wear gear that boosts your stealth stat and you can probably complete the quest so long as you don't have a high armor penalty. As of the latest build, Version 1.0.2.2, there are officially no quests which (to my knowledge) strictly require you to stealth (so long as you have high Persuasion and can wear Metal Armor, that is).
Given that you're running 7 Agility, though, I see no reason why you would not want to use Stealth. It is a massive advantage.

[GawainBS]

Thanks for clarifying that.

So basicly, if I do decide to use Grenades, I need to invest in Throwing. How much of an investment is needed? I assume it's easier to lob a grenade at a tile than a knife at an eye. ;-)

I could get away with no skillpoints in Chemicals then.

Is Stealth an all-or-nothing skill?

Regarding Armour penalty: does it reduces my skill with a relative percent or an absolute one? (Ok, this sounds confuding, let's give an example: I got 50 skill in Dodge and a -20% Armour Check Penalty. Do I end up with 40 effective Dodge or 30?)

Thanks again!

[Hazard]

EDIT: For example, even if you have a base Chemistry stat of 0, the synergies and Intelligence bonus (alongside other items or locations that boost your Intelligence stat) can give you even up to 60+ effective Chemistry skill, allowing you to crafting awesome grenades and decent Mutant Dog Leather Armor.

According to Epeli's character build tool, this is not true. You can only get 13 effective Chemistry if you max Biology, no matter what your Intelligence is.

[Altos]

How much of an investment is needed? I assume it's easier to lob a grenade at a tile than a knife at an eye. ;-)

Well, yes and no. Grenades function as AoE weapons, while Throwing Knives are more targeted attacks. This difference, while small, means that they perform very, very differently from each other. When you throw a grenade, you are guaranteed to (in my experience) at least affect the tile you select, but your grenade may veer wildly off course and may only graze your target (or, worst case scenario, may even damage yourself or any friendly characters nearby, thus aggroing them and forcing you to reload your previous save in order to actually finish the game). The higher your Throwing skill, the greater the likelihood that your grenade is actually going to land perfectly on the tile you selected and have the effect you want it to.
Naturally, the precision of your throws drastically decreases the farther away the tile that you select is from yourself. It's... finicky stuff.
If you really intend to use grenades frequently and don't want to have to save-scum every battle you fight, then I suggest you pump Throwing up to 50 and leave it there.

Is Stealth an all-or-nothing skill?

Nope. If you equip gear that boosts stealth, consume food items that boost your Agility, and retain the Agility score of 7 you previously listed, then you can definitely get away with just putting 50 skill points into Stealth as a base. It's very easy to get 135 or more effective stealth even with just an investment of 50 points.
Or you can do none of that and just live with a Stealth stat of 50, which is by itself capable of getting you through the game if you intend to use Stealth Mode rather frequently (albeit with some frustration come the end-game, as is to be expected).

I'm afraid I can't exactly answer your last question about Armor Penalty, as I don't really understand exactly how Armor Penalty works, myself.

I hope this helps!

EDIT: For example, even if you have a base Chemistry stat of 0, the synergies and Intelligence bonus (alongside other items or locations that boost your Intelligence stat) can give you even up to 60+ effective Chemistry skill, allowing you to crafting awesome grenades and decent Mutant Dog Leather Armor.

According to Epeli's character build tool, this is not true. You can only get 13 effective Chemistry if you max Biology, no matter what your Intelligence is.

Ah, shit. I forgot that Chemistry is only synergized with Biology. Damnit.
Guess I was wrong about that part. Sorry!!

[GawainBS]

Alright, these are, what I believe, are my final questions:

Is STR 3 enough?

Can I pump all my stat points in DEX?

Persuasion: maxing necessary?

Throwing/Stealth: pump to 50 base and Electronics/Chemicals as high as I deem necessary for the stuff I want?

Do Lockpicking/Hacking need to be maxed?

My objective in these games is be able to do as many quests and discover as many areas as possible, hence the questions about social skills, lockpicking & hacking.

Also, which feats should I definitely take?

[addictedorc]

Alright, these are, what I believe, are my final questions:

Is STR 3 enough? (probably not, many armors require a higher strength, as does some equipment)

Can I pump all my stat points in DEX? (If you want, there are tradeoffs, check the feat list in character creation to know what you're eligible for in assessing whether its worth it.) 

Persuasion: maxing necessary? (hmmm. Allocating some yes, maxing....I'll defer to anyone more experienced.)

Throwing/Stealth: pump to 50 base and Electronics/Chemicals as high as I deem necessary for the stuff I want? (From my experience, your equipment is going to drive your stealth modifiers (up and down) more than electronics / chemicals will account for. )

Do Lockpicking/Hacking need to be maxed? (not quite, in addition to your synergies and skill bonuses for attributes over 4, there are higher end picks and hacking tools to offset not being maxed. I usually plan on spending 75 +/- points on each and letting the other factors I mentioned cover the difference. The goal of course is to be able to hit a 100 difficulty in the rare cases you need to, not overspend in this area to the detriment of other areas. )

My objective in these games is be able to do as many quests and discover as many areas as possible, hence the questions about social skills, lockpicking & hacking.

Also, which feats should I definitely take? (That's tough since so many feats are build / tactic specific. After getting familiar with the game myself and the approach I wanted to take (stealth, ranged combatant), the feats were actually what drove the mechanics of my build (such as choosing to put the 10 into perception and my heavy use of traps).)

[Altos]

Is STR 3 enough?

To complete the game? Yes. I've done it myself with two completely different builds.
To pass all of the Strength skill checks? No, obviously not.
To wield Sniper Rifles, Assault Rifles, Metal Armor of any kind, et cetera? No.

For the purposes of an SMG build, you'll be fine. Keep the high DEX and low STR. If the lack of any available inventory space bothers you, then you can consider either taking the Pack Rathound Feat or, and this is what I would recommend, just storing all of your excess junk that you can't sell either in a pile on the ground someplace you'll remember or in your lockers at SGS. I've always personally thought that Pack Rathound is a waste of a Feat, but that's just me. It's your character, after all! Do whatever makes you happiest.

Can I pump all my stat points in DEX?

I mean, you can, but I don't see why you would need to or really ought to. The max for initial character creation is 10, and the maximum base score is 16 (as you get an extra base ability score every 4 levels, and the max level is 25), but that's not really necessary for a SMG build. Keep the 8 initial DEX, and maybe bump it up to 14 if you want, but that's ultimately up to you. I'd probably spread the extra 6 points evenly between Perception, Dexterity, and Agility if I was playing your build.

Persuasion: maxing necessary?

Not necessary, per se, but useful. Aim for 100 Persuasion, and then decide whether or not you want to go for the 135 once you hit it. IIRC, the highest persuasion check only requires 120, but I could be wrong or this could have changed.

Throwing/Stealth: pump to 50 base and Electronics/Chemicals as high as I deem necessary for the stuff I want?

Yeah, that sounds smart to me. You can always pump Throwing or Stealth higher if you feel like it's not enough. Conversely, if you hit 30 Throwing and feel that the grenade accuracy you have is good enough, then you can put the extra 20 points towards something else.
For a SMG character, though, you're definitely going to want to prioritize Mechanics over the other crafting disciplines, as SMGs are crafted entirely using Mechanics skill. (Unless, of course, you don't care about upgrading your gun, at which point feel free to allocate your points however you want.)
Keep in mind that, if you're going to be playing stealthily, you're going to want to wear equipment that boosts your Stealth skill in order to help you survive with 50 Stealth come the end-game. Examples of such items: Cloaking Device, Regular Balaclava, Ninja Tabi Boots, and any piece of non-metal armor with a black overcoat.

Do Lockpicking/Hacking need to be maxed?

If you want to unlock and complete as much as you possibly can with your build, then yes, you mind as well max Hacking and Lockpicking by level 25 while you're at it. If you can only afford to max one of the two, then max Hacking because it gets you some neat end-game lore.

Please understand that it is impossible to unlock and discover every little thing in Underrail within the confines of a single build. You can come very, very close, but you just can't do everything. There are going to be skill checks that you cannot pass. Keep this in mind so it doesn't tear you apart inside, if you're that kind of completionist.

Regarding feats, a lot of what is and is not "needed" is subjective. For a SMG build, the Feats that you ought to take will make themselves very obvious when you unlock access to them. As a general rule of thumb, however, your Feat selection (like your Base Ability Scores and Skill Point distribution) should ultimately be a reflection of how you play the game. Make of that what you will.

[GawainBS]

Alright, I'm going to tackle the game then, with all of your advice in mind. Thanks a dozen for the assist!