Author Topic: Dev Log #26: Alternative Experience System  (Read 9073 times)

Styg

  • Administrator
  • Faceless
  • *****
  • Posts: 1339
  • Karma: +171/-6
    • View Profile
Re: Dev Log #26: Alternative Experience System
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2014, 09:23:33 AM »
Regarding the difficulty, wouldn't it be better to just increase the health by 50% and then grant an extra 50% based on the health that an average character has?
If you go for a stealth sniper, going easy mode or not will not drastically change your survivability given the low base health.

This is true. What I might do in the future is also reduce enemy health on easy mode.

Styg

  • Administrator
  • Faceless
  • *****
  • Posts: 1339
  • Karma: +171/-6
    • View Profile
Re: Dev Log #26: Alternative Experience System
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2014, 09:39:33 AM »
Will some oddities be gained exclusively through quests? If not, then what's the point of doing them? Are you planning on increasing the reward for quests? because the main reason I did quests was to gain EXP and with the new system I don't see any reasons to do them other than simply just "want to".

I'll have to quote myself here, because I really can't think of a better way to put it:
Quote
In my opinion, you should only have to do quests that progress the story (or alter the game world) in the way you want or have other in-game rewards you desire, and not because it's the only way to become more powerful.

And this is really not a novel concept at all. Think of the games from The Elder Scrolls series for example. Quests there don't award experience or anything similar, just material rewards and story progression, yet most people still finish a lot of quests in that game.

Like Banggunner suggested, you shouldn't be forced to do the quests just because they are an integral part of character leveling. If something is not fun for you, you should be able to skip it for the most part.

Eliasfrost

  • Tchortist
  • ****
  • Posts: 343
  • Karma: +9/-0
  • If fate frowns, we all perish
    • View Profile
Re: Dev Log #26: Alternative Experience System
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2014, 10:35:28 AM »
Most quests in The Elder Scrolls are built so that you use your skills within the quest and thus you lvl your character either way, be it your weapon skills or speechcraft etc. But I hear ya, I think it's an interesting idea, I'm just a little worried is all. :P

Elhazzared

  • Tchortist
  • ****
  • Posts: 491
  • Karma: +7/-18
    • View Profile
Re: Dev Log #26: Alternative Experience System
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2014, 03:46:45 PM »
Quite frankly I'm not a fan of this specifical experience system since to me it makes no sense that killing enemies and completing quests do not award XP . I can understand what you are trying to do but I find this option less optimal than the classic way of XP... Still, the classic way to earn XP is still there as an option so it's all cool because it's an option and having options is good.

UnLimiTeD

  • Tchortist
  • ****
  • Posts: 417
  • Karma: +18/-1
    • View Profile
Re: Dev Log #26: Alternative Experience System
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2014, 07:47:11 PM »
Maybe add an exponential requirement progression system where you can gain up to +5 on a limited amount of skills you use very often?
Nontheless, I'm intrigued to try it before I really judge. :)
First person to give Styg Karma.

I hereby declare that I love the oddity system and am in favour of shop and carry limits.

LazyMonk

  • Scavenger
  • ***
  • Posts: 126
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Dev Log #26: Alternative Experience System
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2014, 08:07:05 PM »
Quite frankly I'm not a fan of this specifical experience system since to me it makes no sense that killing enemies and completing quests do not award XP .
Elhazzard, but you have to accept as well that the classic xp system makes less sense. Your character shouldn't become better at arming traps by shooting rathounds in the face and delivering documents. Helping an old lady crossing the street should be no substitute of doing your maths homework .

I gave it a try today and the game didn't felt much different. But then again i was already familiar with this system.
As long as the oddities are objects that can provide useful skills and information to the character, i am quite happy with it. I just don't know how much i can learn from a chewing toy.  :P
Utility Belt
"The most important tool in fighting crime."

Elhazzared

  • Tchortist
  • ****
  • Posts: 491
  • Karma: +7/-18
    • View Profile
Re: Dev Log #26: Alternative Experience System
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2014, 01:34:24 AM »
Quite frankly I'm not a fan of this specifical experience system since to me it makes no sense that killing enemies and completing quests do not award XP .
Elhazzard, but you have to accept as well that the classic xp system makes less sense. Your character shouldn't become better at arming traps by shooting rathounds in the face and delivering documents. Helping an old lady crossing the street should be no substitute of doing your maths homework .

I gave it a try today and the game didn't felt much different. But then again i was already familiar with this system.
As long as the oddities are objects that can provide useful skills and information to the character, i am quite happy with it. I just don't know how much i can learn from a chewing toy.  :P

Similarly, it doesn't makes sense you can kill stuff better by researching an item... I understand what is trying to be done here and again, I don't really mind the system so long as it's optional. but I feel this system is much worse and much more contrived than the classic system. I also understand that it's rather hard to make up a system that would make 100% sense otherwise you'd only get good at something by doing that something. You'd need a system where ratehr than gaining XP to level up and distribute points, you'd need a system that would award XP to specific skills as you use them. The problem then becomes that you could just be amazing at everything.

Eliasfrost

  • Tchortist
  • ****
  • Posts: 343
  • Karma: +9/-0
  • If fate frowns, we all perish
    • View Profile
Re: Dev Log #26: Alternative Experience System
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2014, 02:02:45 AM »
Similarly, it doesn't makes sense you can kill stuff better by researching an item... I understand what is trying to be done here and again, I don't really mind the system so long as it's optional. but I feel this system is much worse and much more contrived than the classic system. I also understand that it's rather hard to make up a system that would make 100% sense otherwise you'd only get good at something by doing that something. You'd need a system where ratehr than gaining XP to level up and distribute points, you'd need a system that would award XP to specific skills as you use them. The problem then becomes that you could just be amazing at everything.

Unless you train, like in good ol' Gothic. I really liked the XP system in that game. If you're not familiar, it basically did so that you gain XP from doing various things, like killing enemies and doing quests etc. But instead of traditional XP you gain "training points" that you spend to learn new stuff from trainers around the game world. Be it increasing a skill or attribute or learning new tricks within a skill or a whole new ability.

---

My biggest worry about the new system is that it feels like a compromise rather than catering to different playstyles. Because it boils everything down to treasure huntering to power up your character and in lots of ways that doesn't feel very adventurous. Right now, I don't feel like I'm making personal progress because I'm not getting better at what I do by doing it or by actually exploring the world in a natural sense. Let me explain:

Before, you could gain experience in a number of ways including killing stuff, picking locks, disarming traps, doing quests etc. I felt like I gained XP from activities and that what I was doing actually meant something for my personal character, even if I could put those points I earned through killing things to mind control, it still felt like I was rewarded by my actions and that they strenghened me, it felt meaningful to pick locks, it felt meaningful to overcome a hard battle or successfuly persuade a character.

In the current system, I don't feel like I'm making personal progress in the same way, it's more like a treasure hunt (like I said above) and when I have all the pieces of the map I somehow get better at the stuff I do when I'm not treasure hunting. It feels wrong, it feels artificial, and that's what I mean when I say it feels like a compromise. It doesn't really cater to all playstyles, it more or less cripple the whole experience for all playstyles in order for some to work.

That's basically how I feel about the new system, it's a good thing that you can choose between classic and oddity, I really do prefer the classic XP gain style.


Feel.. feel, sounds weird now after som many times  :o
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 02:13:12 AM by Eliasfrost »

LazyMonk

  • Scavenger
  • ***
  • Posts: 126
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Dev Log #26: Alternative Experience System
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2014, 02:45:25 AM »
I am also glad we can still pick the classic system. When i first saw the update i thought i was not even going to touch it.
But then i remembered that i had a previous experience with it, and that most things that i dislike on the old system wouldn't be present.

[Similarly, it doesn't makes sense you can kill stuff better by researching an item...

Yes, you are right it does not. Unless its a gun's manual or something...
Before, you could gain experience in a number of ways including killing stuff, picking locks, disarming traps, doing quests etc. I felt like I gained XP from activities and that what I was doing actually meant something for my personal character
I guess my biggest gripe with the classic system is regarding the lack of reward for playing a stealthy character.
I was sneaking through the whole junkyard and getting zero of XP from it.
Give this system a try with a stealth character, it might feel more rewarding.

I get what both of you are saying because i feel it to, to some degree. But i still prefer this system because it rewards
stealthy and diplomatic approaches with equality and discourages of doing unnecessary actions just to farm for xp.


« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 03:11:14 AM by LazyMonk »
Utility Belt
"The most important tool in fighting crime."

Eliasfrost

  • Tchortist
  • ****
  • Posts: 343
  • Karma: +9/-0
  • If fate frowns, we all perish
    • View Profile
Re: Dev Log #26: Alternative Experience System
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2014, 11:43:18 AM »
I think the best way to utilize the choice of XP system is to simply pick Oddity for stealth and speech characters and classic for all other playstyles, oddity doesn't work for any other than the two passive playstyles.

Styg

  • Administrator
  • Faceless
  • *****
  • Posts: 1339
  • Karma: +171/-6
    • View Profile
Re: Dev Log #26: Alternative Experience System
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2014, 12:25:57 PM »
The oddity system is not meant to simulate the real life studying and skill increasing more accurately than the classic. They are both abstract and gamey and can never be anything else as long as there's a single input for power progression - XP.

The purpose is, as I stated multiple times, to remove the need to kill for the sake of getting experience and progressing in levels.

And killing is the way you get most of your XP in the classic system and that forces the player to adapt a certain attitude towards the game and threat it as a zoo of enemies to be slaughtered. I'm completely fine with people playing the game that way, that's why the classic system is there.

But for those who don't want to spend the time clearing out this zoo and like to pick and choose their battles and take a more meaningful approach to challenges than "kill everything" the new system is there to provide them with equal experience.

Eliasfrost

  • Tchortist
  • ****
  • Posts: 343
  • Karma: +9/-0
  • If fate frowns, we all perish
    • View Profile
Re: Dev Log #26: Alternative Experience System
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2014, 03:36:00 PM »
I guess what I'm trying to say it that the neither of the XP systems should be treated as "standard" or default, because one XP system is better for certain playstyles than the other, and vice versa. The oddity system is disengaging and unadventurous for combat style characters while the classic system is unrewarding for passive players. No system is perfect, I understand that and I'm not asking for a perfect system, it's more or less the way the game treats the system that I have a slight problem with.

New players that are getting into the game and play the game "the way it's meant to be played" will pick oddity system and most likely find their choice of activity disengaging and unrewarding if they choose to play an aggressive playstyle.

I'm not trying to bash the new system, I'm laying out the potential problems it can cause down the line and explaining my experience and thoughts about it. And while the system is not supposed to be realistic my view on it is that getting better is one of the main goal of the game (because that's the way you gain access to new content traditionally) and when the activities that you choose to participate in don't progress your character, it disengages me and I spend more time collecting oddities to progress than actually doing stuff I like.

What I mean is that this system doesn't really reward all playstyles but it feels like an easy solution to another problem. And that problem is that passive playstyles don't get rewarded enough in classic, so instead of creating mechanics and reward stealthy players for their stealth playstyle (or diplomatic), the oddity system simply paint it over with a one-dimensional XP gain system that all playstyles benefit from, and from a single activity no less, without actually utilizing their playstyle, see where I'm coming from?

And I don't really know if killing stuff was the primary way to gain XP for me, it was quests (and lockpicking/hacking), killing was a part of XP gain yes but it never felt like I was required to kill stuff to progress. And I played primarily stealth characters.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 03:45:44 PM by Eliasfrost »

epeli

  • Wiki Administrator
  • Faceless
  • ***
  • Posts: 1337
  • Karma: +101/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Dev Log #26: Alternative Experience System
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2014, 01:49:42 AM »
My thoughts on the oddity XP system. Playing a new character, 86 oddity XP so far I think, haven't touched Depot A yet but that's next on the agenda.


Initially I was quite skeptical of the system, thinking it would encourage a passive playstyle. I still think it does, even though it really hasn't changed anything in practice, at least not for me.  It also makes you feel kind of disconnected from your character's progress, as experience isn't directly connected to anything you do.

But on the other hand, it allows you to freely do things without worrying about missed exp. Really liberating for a powergamer! :P
For example, you don't have to worry about getting detection XP for both ends of a tunnel in South Gate Outposts before using it. Or you can lure all the rathounds to Gorsky's team in GMS and you can use that turret in level 3 to slaughter the raiders without missing any kill XP. I can see how this is much closer to how it's intended to be played.

I'd say the overall effect is positive, even though I will always miss getting exp from using your skills.
It's a good thing the old XP system is still there as an option, but I think I'm starting to prefer this one.


Oh, and one thing I really like about oddities is how some of them give bits and pieces of Underrail's background lore. <3
[[Underrail Wiki]] // character build tool: underrail.info.tm (thread)