Author Topic: Stealth Build w/o crafting viable?  (Read 12608 times)

Davaeorn

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Stealth Build w/o crafting viable?
« on: February 15, 2018, 10:17:53 am »
Hi y'all and thanks for having me,

I am new to this game and am quite unsure on how to build my character.
After watching NerdCommando's build guides on youtube, which I all dislike because all his stealth chars are crafting heavy.

I don't know how to proceed without possibly creating a gimped char.

Apologizes also in advance for any grammar mistakes etc., I am not a native speaker (or writer for that matter).

It would be mucho appreciated if some experts could find a moment of their time to look over my build design:

Introduction
Limitations: As you could probably guess I have a strong disdain for crafting in RPGs. I understand that it makes sense in the game's setting but I just don't like crafting as a RPG gameplay mechanic generally (hated it in Skyrim/Fallout 4 -- but those weren't RPGs on the otherhand -- was glad it was minimal or not present in Fallout 1/2 or BG1/2 etc.). The build should have none or minimal crafting (I've read there is a certain 'cloaking device' which one cannot obtain via merchant...)

Concept:
  • I want to play a stealth char who is capable of stealth kills via either throwing or melee.
  • I also want to pickpocket.
  • On traps I am not sure how viable they are without the possibility of crafting them by yourself.
  • I want to open every container, hack every computer and be able to find every hidden passage etc.
  • I have no problem avoiding encounters but I don't want to have to avoid too many them because I am not capable to kill.
  • I wouldn't mind speech talents but I don't know if they are viable.
  • I wouldn't mind toying with grenades and/or traps if there are enough available for purchase.

Starting Stats
Strength       3    (no crafting, no guns etc., no blunt -> not needed)
Dexterity      10  (for max. dmg)
Agility          10   (for max. stealth)
Constitution  3    (just no)
Perception    6    (for seeing everything)
Will              3    (no bueno for the build, I guess)
Intelligence  5     (for feats like cheap shots or expose weakness?)

Skills
With the skills my uncertainty begins:
  • Should I take melee or throwing or both?
  • Should I take evasion or dodge or both or neither?
  • Should I take traps at all?
  • Should I take persuasion (I've read somewhere here on the forums that intimidation is more or less useless?
  • Something I missed?

Feats
Unsure again:
  • I am pretty sure I need interloper, sprint, paranoia, cut-throat (if melee), recklessness and opportunist.
  • Does ambush work with throwing knives?
  • How useful are escape artist, fancy footwork, nimble, uncanny dodge, blitz and should I take it for the build in mind?
  • Something I missed?

Thank you all in advance for any help you can provide!


PS: I just don't have the time at hand to figure it all out by myself via trial and error like back in the days when there was no internet and I had the time to play days and hours of world of xeen on my 486dx. My RL just does not allow it to play through games multiple times or try stuff out for hours. Since this is the char I want to play, I turn to you guys for advice.



« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 10:23:39 am by Davaeorn »

TheAverageGortsby

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Re: Stealth Build w/o crafting viable?
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2018, 02:31:13 pm »
UnderRail is largely a combat game.  So what you're suggesting for your build is a little weak, not because it's nonsensical, but because you don't have as much freedom to avoid encounters in UnderRail as you did in the old Fallouts, for example (well, aside from Tactics, obviously...)   Let me syllogize you briefly. that's not really a word btw

Crafting results in greatly superior gear to purchased/found gear.
You want to minimize the effects on your character from a no-crafting build.
Therefore, you need a build that is not gear-reliant.

The most powerful non-crafting character you can make is a stealth psi character.  Psi is heavily reliant on stats and skills, and only barely concerns itself with equipment.  But you don't want psi, so what can you do to avoid relying on crafted gear?

You should probably invest in Mercantile.  Mercantile will not only give you better deals on equipment, but it will also open up additional stocks in many shopkeepers, so you'll have more opportunities for them to have what you need.
You should probably invest in traps.  Traps are easy to acquire (with good traps skill, they literally grow on the ground like weeds! Just pick 'em up!), cheap to purchase, and you don't need a whole lot of them.
   As a corollary to that, you should look at Quick Tinkering as a feat.  It may interest you if you decide to build into Traps skill.
If you want to find every hidden passage, you're going to need to put one more point in Perception, and you're also going to need to take the Snooping feat, and also carry the Perception-boosting goggles.  11 effective Perception is what you need. (if you use your suggested stat spread, you can put your first stat point into Per and you won't miss anything - the high Perception secrets come later in the game)
If you're willing to invest just 60 points into Chemistry (you need 69 effective), and 10 points into Mechanics and Tailoring, you'll be able to make your own grenades.  Flashbangs, HE, frags, incendiaries.  Incendiaries are immensely helpful and I suspect you could win the game on Normal using nothing but grenades and throwing knives.  Maybe even on Hard.
If you plan on using traps and grenades a lot, you'll probably be avoiding melee as much as possible.  Thus, you should invest heavily into Evasion and somewhat into Dodge.  Escape Artist will be your friend since you won't want people to get into melee with you.

Interloper is pretty much strictly QoL.  It's nice to have, but you don't need it.  If you decide you're going to invest heavily into throwing, you *do* need to pick up Grenadier and Three-Pointer for grenades.  You should also put a couple of the stat points from levelling up into Dexterity since that's going to make your thrown attacks better.  Throwing builds are objectively weaker tier builds, and you need to get the most bang for your buck, figuratively (and literally, in-game).

I know you don't want crafting, but you seriously may want to think about getting 25 effective skill in Tailoring and Mechanics, or even 50 if you're willing to go that far.  The reason for this is if you can craft your own repair kits, the game economy will be much, much more forgiving.  Repairing items before you sell them increases their value.  Repairing your own equipment will become necessary eventually and buying repair kits gets pricey, especially early on. Some merchants buy them, and their value is high and weight low.  If you're on Easy or Normal, maybe it won't matter, but if you plan to play on Hard or Dominating with your already self-nerfed build, you really will find having a supply of repair kits (and grenades, as mentioned earlier) to be very helpful.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 02:59:09 pm by TheAverageGortsby »

STEN

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Re: Stealth Build w/o crafting viable?
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2018, 02:48:32 pm »
Stealthy sniper (pistol\smg sidearm) with mind control and exploration skills:
PS: Interloper is vital.
I can post a perk list if needed.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 02:56:20 pm by STEN »

MirddinEmris

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Re: Stealth Build w/o crafting viable?
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2018, 04:00:48 pm »
Quote
Throwing builds are objectively weaker tier builds, and you need to get the most bang for your buck, figuratively (and literally, in-game).

I want to specify that throwing build are low-tier if they use ONLY throwing. If throwing build just means heavy investing in throwing (skill + Grenadier + Three-Pointer + Fatal throw + perhaps chemistry) than it can be pretty OP. Good throw of a high end grenade can be a final argument in many fights.

Quote
Traps are easy to acquire, cheap to purchase, and you don't need a whole lot of them.

Yeah, Thailand is great, i agree.

Altos

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Re: Stealth Build w/o crafting viable?
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2018, 09:53:02 pm »
Yeah, Thailand is great, i agree.
I've never been there myself, but I hear great things. :P

Gotta love autocorrect sometimes. ;D

destroyor

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Re: Stealth Build w/o crafting viable?
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2018, 05:00:05 am »
If you want to play a stealth build w/o crafting you should play either psi or unarmed. Why? TheAverageGortsby already explained about psi. Unarmed because there are couple good unarmed unique in the game so you don't need crafting.

Just want to add some minor points:
- Use the build tool http://underrail.info.tm/build/ to plan and post your build.
- Don't play dominating difficulty w/o crafting. It can be done but it's not fun.
- I just don't get Interloper: you do get faster stealth speed (you can get by easily without this speed boost) and +15MP in combat but why choose this when you can get Sprint for +30MP for 2 turns, on demand? You should test out the two feats in a separate save before fully commit to your build
- For most build Cutthroat is a luxury you can't afford. I don't recommend getting this for a knife build.
- Ambush only works w/ range weapons. Since throwing knives are consider combat utilities, no, I don't think Ambush works w/ throwing knives.
- Blitz is a very specialize feat. If you are new to the game, I don't recommend getting it.
- Escape artist, Fancy footwork, Nimble, Uncanny dodge: hard to say without looking at your build. Fancy Footwork works well w/ high DEX knife/unarmed build (works great w/ Blitz too). If you have one last empty feat slot I think Uncanny dodge > Nimble > Escape artist.
- Melee, throwing or both -> again hard to say without looking at your build. Since you are playing w/o crafting I would say both. Just remember throwing skills does not increase grenade damage as it only increase throwing accuracy. 80 effective throwing is a good target to aim for as it will allow you to throw a grenade four tiles away at 90% accuracy. Anything over would probably be a waste in your case.
- Dodge and Evasion are not worth it in Dominating difficulty. They are very useful for easy/normal/hard. Since you are playing w/o crafting get both since you should have a lot of skill points left anyway. If you need skill points else where cut dodge to 40 and just use Uncanny dodge.
- Traps: just get 25 base traps so you can get quick tinkering, that should be enough
- Persuasion: really your personal choice
-  "I want to open every container, hack every computer and be able to find every hidden passage etc" Open every container + hack every computer = 130 effective hacking *without the aid of tools*, 130 effective lockpicking. The last one is a problem - find every hidden passage requires high PER but PER is useless to a melee/psi char. I would say save this for a second run w/ a gunner/xbow char.
 

MirddinEmris

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Re: Stealth Build w/o crafting viable?
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2018, 07:57:07 am »
If you don't have time to play several times and don't want to bother with crafting (kinda stupid, since this crafting system is nothing like fucking Skyrim's crafting system), i would strongly recommend playing on Normal or maybe even Easy. Don't worry, the game will still be sufficiently hard for you, since, again, this is not a fucking Skyrim.

Davaeorn

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Re: Stealth Build w/o crafting viable?
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2018, 08:58:21 am »
First of all thanks to all of you for the advice and the help.

I have two things in mind as it stands now:

1) Staying true to my idea but with light crafting as TheAverageGortsBy suggested.

2) Making a different build more in the direction of what STEN proposes but without the psi-stuff but not with sniper rifles but with pistols or xbows (but xbows need heavy crafting I've read)

Maybe something like this but I am unsure on perks again and not sure if pistol or smg for stealth...

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMKCgMKAwfChwAAAMKHwofCh31swodkAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABFzkeME4CNiRPMSYR



The last one is a problem - find every hidden passage requires high PER but PER is useless to a melee/psi char. I would say save this for a second run w/ a gunner/xbow char.


Maybe a stealth pistol build is a good idea then?



Stealthy sniper (pistol\smg sidearm) with mind control and exploration skills:
PS: Interloper is vital.
I can post a perk list if needed.

That would be much appreciated.


UnderRail is largely a combat game.  So what you're suggesting for your build is a little weak, not because it's nonsensical, but because you don't have as much freedom to avoid encounters in UnderRail as you did in the old Fallouts, for example (well, aside from Tactics, obviously...)   Let me syllogize you briefly. that's not really a word btw

Crafting results in greatly superior gear to purchased/found gear.
You want to minimize the effects on your character from a no-crafting build.
Therefore, you need a build that is not gear-reliant.

Ok but from what I gathered I want to play a very gear reliant build.

So maybe I will follow your advices on taking some light crafting eventually.

Yeah, Thailand is great, i agree.
I've never been there myself, but I hear great things. :P

Gotta love autocorrect sometimes. ;D

Thanks for the travel advices but I am already going to Crete this year. :)

If you don't have time to play several times and don't want to bother with crafting (kinda stupid, since this crafting system is nothing like fucking Skyrim's crafting system), i would strongly recommend playing on Normal or maybe even Easy. Don't worry, the game will still be sufficiently hard for you, since, again, this is not a fucking Skyrim.


I am an RPG-Player of old as stated in my initial post. I don't want another Skyrim or (even worse) Witcher 3 because they are not RPGs in my eyes.

I also do realize very well that Skyrim's crafting system was particularly stupid.

So what would you suggest if I am to take some crafting skills for the aforementioned build?


MirddinEmris

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Re: Stealth Build w/o crafting viable?
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2018, 10:19:13 am »
Quote
I am an RPG-Player of old as stated in my initial post.

Doesn't matter. Higher difficulties require deeper understanding of the system than you possess. That's not a jab at you, it's just a consequences of you not wiling to spend enough time at this game. If you want to make just one run of the game, play at Normal. And believe me, it's not 'normal' from modern games, it can be quite hard, especially first time, so don't worry about challenge.

Davaeorn

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Re: Stealth Build w/o crafting viable?
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2018, 10:44:26 am »
Quote
I am an RPG-Player of old as stated in my initial post.

Doesn't matter. Higher difficulties require deeper understanding of the system than you possess. That's not a jab at you, it's just a consequences of you not wiling to spend enough time at this game. If you want to make just one run of the game, play at Normal. And believe me, it's not 'normal' from modern games, it can be quite hard, especially first time, so don't worry about challenge.

I understand what you're saying.

Ofc I do not have the understanding I have with games like BG, F1/2 or so but then again if I had I wouldn't come here to ask for advice, right?

I will play on normal but my initial question was not about difficulty level but about a build with stealth which can explore most of the game without having to avoid fighting constantly.

Then I've read it's a much more combat heavy game like F1/F2, so I came up with a slightly different concept in my last post.

TheAverageGortsby

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Re: Stealth Build w/o crafting viable?
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2018, 10:48:09 am »
not sure if pistol or smg for stealth...

Thanks for the travel advices but I am already going to Crete this year. :)
If you want a stealthy gun, you're going to need a silenced gun.  If you're going to use a silenced gun, you're going to have to use a 5mm barrel, since silencers only work on those.  Since you're using a 5mm, SMGs will almost always be superior to pistols unless you somehow do not have the required skill (and you will, if you put points into Guns).  [EDIT: I should add though that you do have two hands, and carrying an SMG in one and a pistol in the other is not a bad choice at all, especially if you intend to give yourself many opportunities to use Execute]  [OK one last thing.  In your build idea from a few posts above, you shouldn't take Snooping on a build with 10 Perception.  It's a waste of a feat.]

Crete is lovely.  Enjoy it all  :D

Just remember throwing skills does not increase grenade damage as it only increase throwing accuracy.
May I nitpick?  with Three Pointer, Throwing increases your crit frequency noticeably which does, taken in average, increase your damage.  That's why I said it was necessary for a highly grenade-reliant build, especially one without enough crafting to make the Tier V grenades.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 11:26:05 am by TheAverageGortsby »

Fenix

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Re: Stealth Build w/o crafting viable?
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2018, 12:43:33 pm »
Play Hard - don't play Normal, it's just waste of time, Normal diff. won't get you experience about combat because there you can make mistakes and still survive, so you don't need to learn.
Also, for all sekkkrets you need 10 Per or 7 Per+Snooping.
Also you can get cloacking device - there are at least 203 in game, maybe more, thou they are not top quality.
Also, get Tazer as soon as possible - handy stuff for almost all builds, for pistol and melee too.

MirddinEmris

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Re: Stealth Build w/o crafting viable?
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2018, 01:21:21 pm »
Quote
Also, for all sekkkrets you need 10 Per or 7 Per+Snooping.

11. The most important secret location requires 11 Per. The rest are mostly useless, especially if you are not doing oddity xp.

Quote
Normal diff. won't get you experience about combat because there you can make mistakes and still survive, so you don't need to learn.

That's the idea. He doesn't want to get stuck halfway through the game (or even worse, near the end).

Quote
I will play on normal but my initial question was not about difficulty level but about a build with stealth which can explore most of the game without having to avoid fighting constantly.

I would recommend playing SMG build, it's close enough to your stat distribution (just remember to pump the dex to the max on lvl ups). It's more powerful than pistol or crossbow builds and doesn't rely heavily on crafting - there are decent unique weapons for that type and smart goggles are sold at the shop, which will allow you to be decently good at killing stuff. I goes well with stealth and Ambush feat, since you can find silenced SMGs allowing you to pick enemies in smaller grounds if you need to. And it has relatively simple build - Spec Ops + Commando. If you take Grenadier and Three-Pointer along with decent throwing skill (as was pointed out - around 80 effective skill) you would be golden. I would also suggest Paranoia for additional boost to initiative and detection. Opportunist + Suppressive Fire are also good combo to boost you damage even further along with applying some debuff to the enemy

Attribute points needed - Dex as high as possible since it affects how AP per shot you are using, Per around 10, Agi 7 for feats. Also, if you don't intend to craft anything 7 points in Int is such a waste. Drop it to 3, you will only need to spend couple more points on hacking and since you don't do crafting, you have them.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 01:27:25 pm by MirddinEmris »

MirddinEmris

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Re: Stealth Build w/o crafting viable?
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2018, 01:23:58 pm »
Quote
Since you're using a 5mm, SMGs will almost always be superior to pistols unless you somehow do not have the required skill

Strange, it seems like you are saying that in case of other calibers SMGs are not always superior to pistols. But you can't be saying that. That would be madness.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 01:27:47 pm by MirddinEmris »

Fenix

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Re: Stealth Build w/o crafting viable?
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2018, 01:35:44 pm »
I always heard that 10 Per is enough for all secrets.
Are you sure?