Author Topic: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich  (Read 11108 times)

Styg

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Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2013, 03:19:55 PM »
Inventory limitations might happen at some point. I'm still thinking about the best way to implement it and how it should affect the dungeon crawling and the game in general.

f anything was to be done, I would have it so you have a set number of tiles in your Inventory, and some things take up more tiles. Would also allow for some cool looking flashy sprites for the bigger items as well.

This is one thing that's sure not to happen as that would require redoing a lot of graphics among other things.

Major_Blackhart

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Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2013, 03:35:34 PM »
From my own standpoint, part of the enjoyment I get from the game is not so much managing my inventory, but from the feeling that I am kind of a scout, sent ahead of an advancing force.
That means that I spend long time away from home if I need to, and can survive on my own. Having certain limitations in inventory is a good thing, no doubt about it. But, in a dungeon crawler type like this, with loot dropped whenever you take out a human or mutated human, and sometimes with a dog or other creature, it makes the game a bit of a loot fest, and not in a bad way, I don't think.
Forcing the player to decide about what to carry in a loot fest can make things aggravating. Don't get me wrong, it's not such a bad thing. But forcing me to constantly return to shop to unload whenever I find something new that's out of my weight limit or inventory space can be annoying, especially since there's no teleportation spells or anything like that.

LazyMonk

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Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2013, 05:13:49 PM »
Major_Blackhart, but no game forces you to go back and forth to sell more stuff. You chose to. A limited inventory system only forces a player to choose which items do you bring with, what items do you pick from your fallen enemies and to discourage players from taking everything.
Yeah its annoying but i guess that's the point of the system, to discourage you of doing such boring travels back and forth. You can also travel back and forth for that free healing at the Station and spare on bandages/health hypos but i bet most of you don't even if its the most economical option.

A way to fast travel to shops would take away some of the point of having a limited inventory system.

I am noticing that i am being very vocal about this :-[ so i have to add that i am fine with how the game the works right now.
I just thought of this since you can become quite rich so quickly breaking the economy to the point you can have 5 tiles with 999 Stygian Coins before you even find the.. ahem.. last quest item, and a limited inventory system might mitigate this a little bit.
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joejoefine

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Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2013, 02:59:49 AM »
There seems to be some impression that making it harder to sell acquired loot is synonymous with requiring a player to be forced to make careful choices with their limited inventory.

I don't think this necessarily has to be the case. The system could be designed so that there is a fast travel option, but its only activated once all enemies have been cleared out of an area, so you can't abuse it to instantly change your inventory or visit the doctor.  After a while it could repopulate with critters/thugs etc., and after they've been cleared out you can fast travel again. Just like in Fallout, among other games (Arcanum); you can't travel in dangerous areas.

Or it could be a system where encumberance reduces your weapons and evasion skills significantly, so that its only tenable to carry more items when you're no longer in any imminent danger. I don't know if there really is any positive argument for making it more difficult for people to sell loot they find, in and of itself.  Knowing that people are going to try to make as much money as they can, assuming the items aren't junk or that there are very few numbers of them, then you know that they're going to, almost universally, go back to get more loot to sell at a shop. These are reasonable expectations of any gamer.

So its incumbent on game designers to find ways to make aspects of game play which are practically a necessity as non-tedious as possible, so long as it doesn't create problems in other areas (i.e. strategic management of inventory). Not that Styg is doing anything wrong, just wanted to contribute my opinion!

Hans_Sanitizer

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Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2013, 07:29:04 AM »
Just wanted to chime in on saying that the Junkyard was the most difficult part of the game for me, and that it wasn't possible to have sustained combat in any of the cases (made a build focused on crafting and using a laser pistol). I kept having to duck into another area and then come back after bandaging. There is no need to make this area harder in my opinion, in fact I found this area the most frustrating so far.

Everything prior to this area was a good level of difficulty where if I got stuck I found that planning out my attack better yielded results, but I finally resorted to cheap tactics when playing in the junkyard (back and forth between areas, and using up nades like crazy). I'm not nuts about the degradation of items, but if implemented properly it should be fun.

I disagree with those who say merchants should only be interested in particular weapons, if I was a merchant who sold plants and someone came up giving me a good deal on leather I wouldn't turn it down.

The game imo is difficult enough as it is, and while this might be a bold statement, in being the designer for the game, knowing the math behind your actions, everything is going to appear easier than it is.

This is the point where I would suggest considering user chosen difficulty scaling that would take into account inventory size limitation, buffing of the junkyard enemies (as well as others), items being scarce (from merchants and areas), as well as anything else you can think of.

I would consider the current level of difficulty of the game about at a "hard" setting for other games I've played, or at the very least slightly above "normal."

I would say that difficulty is not something this game is lacking in.

Major_Blackhart

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Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2013, 03:17:56 PM »
I would honestly LOVE to see a junkyard boss, some sort of mutant who's stronger than the others, maybe not an acid mutant, but maybe some regular Junkyard mutant who's just managed to survive long enough to get that hard. Maybe some sort of badass with a regenerative bulletproof jacket and a laser pistol.
Something fun like that, really difficult, not necessary, but fun anyway.

x11

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Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2013, 05:09:27 PM »
I found junkyard hard as well. Especially the small zone on the right with the 5 human enemies (1 standing near fence looking south-west). It to me like 10 or more tries until I got trough (while not changing between zones). I was low on psi, however I didn't expect it to be that hard. I used 4x mine, 1x flashbang, 2x he, 1x fire psi ability and the rest pistol. The acid areas where hard as well. Maybe my char was not that well balanced... However, I guess I can agree with Hans_Sanitizer: "difficulty is not something this game is lacking in"

LazyMonk

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Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2013, 07:06:59 PM »
There seems to be some impression that making it harder to sell acquired loot is synonymous with requiring a player to be forced to make careful choices with their limited inventory.
Not at all. The presence of a limited inventory might benefit a player to do some more careful choices than clicking the take all button, but it isn't forcing anything on the player. But its true that a limited inventory alone wont help much. It works better when combined with other restrictions like when you cant revisit the looted area. I personally don't think this would fit the Underrail setting much as it might spoil the exploration.
While playing fallout i had to pick what weapons and ammo i would bring with me around. I couldn't have all the firearms available with me and pick the best one for the occasion. These kind of choices come not from"making it harder to sell acquired loot" but from having a limited inventory system.

I don't think this necessarily has to be the case. The system could be designed so that there is a fast travel option, but its only activated once all enemies have been cleared out of an area, so you can't abuse it to instantly change your inventory or visit the doctor.  After a while it could repopulate with critters/thugs etc., and after they've been cleared out you can fast travel again. Just like in Fallout, among other games (Arcanum); you can't travel in dangerous areas.
Joejoefine, i am sorry for i expressed myself poorly. When i said:
A way to fast travel to shops would take away some of the point of having a limited inventory system.
I was referring to what Major_Blackhart said about the lack of a teleportation spell or something similar to reduce the boredom of traveling back and forth to sell sutff if there was a limited inventory system. This mean of quick travel would be an alternative to walking through all the areas until you got to a shop.
Fallout and Arcanum fast travel system were not an alternative way of travel. They were the only way you could travel from a town to another. You could not teleport yourself from the third level of the glow to the hub. The fast travel on those games was not designed to facilitate nor to impede looting, it was the only way of traveling between great distances.
Arcanum did had a teleportation spell, it was the 5th of the Conveyance spell college, and it did make looting remote areas easier.

In both these games fast traveling also led to random encounters. In these you would have to make choices about what would you loot because you couldn't come back later.

Knowing that people are going to try to make as much money as they can, assuming the items aren't junk or that there are very few numbers of them, then you know that they're going to, almost universally, go back to get more loot to sell at a shop. These are reasonable expectations of any gamer.

You seem to be describing the behavior and the expectations of a power gamer. Myself and a few friends i know, that play this genre of games, don't bother mostly revisiting dungeons to get all those longswords on the floor and that chainmail we may have left behind. I dont know how the universe of players feel about this though.
Yes it will be annoying but only if you set yourself the goal of selling everything you find, and you really don't have to. I dont know if any developer expects you too, since you will make enough money without doing in most of the games i have played.

Styg has said that we will have metro system that will allow us to quick travel between stations. That sounds
really good. Its a nice way of giving the impression that you are traveling far to another place without being tedious and still fitting the theme of the game.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 08:19:47 PM by LazyMonk »
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WolveNZ

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Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2013, 04:29:09 AM »
Thinking about it, I think a Limited Innovatory would be nice, if done realistically. This would also maybe lead to more dynamic survival elements such as sleeping, eating and drinking that i think would work really well in this game. Making it more Survival based rather than combat based. Feeding the use of Cave Hoppers for meat (And with Item Degradation, for Cheap clothing)

ciox

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Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2013, 11:51:45 AM »
Hey there, I just want to make a small suggestion for pickpocketing, which works in a very traditional way right now, meaning you try and fail and immediately want to reload your save, this feels grindy and it can be done differently to remove the reloading impetus.
Basically just make it so you either can or can't pickpocket someone without chances, and your perception lets you know if you can. No more grinding.

Eliasfrost

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Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2013, 11:55:10 AM »
Hey there, I just want to make a small suggestion for pickpocketing, which works in a very traditional way right now, meaning you try and fail and immediately want to reload your save, this feels grindy and it can be done differently to remove the reloading impetus.
Basically just make it so you either can or can't pickpocket someone without chances, and your perception lets you know if you can. No more grinding.

That eliminates all consequences of a failed pickpocket attempt, I don't know if I agree with that.

ciox

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Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2013, 11:58:38 AM »
Hey there, I just want to make a small suggestion for pickpocketing, which works in a very traditional way right now, meaning you try and fail and immediately want to reload your save, this feels grindy and it can be done differently to remove the reloading impetus.
Basically just make it so you either can or can't pickpocket someone without chances, and your perception lets you know if you can. No more grinding.

That eliminates all consequences of a failed pickpocket attempt, I don't know if I agree with that.

But the consequence is usually being shot at by an important NPC, or starting a fight that 20 NPCs participate in, that's not a consequence it's a game over screen.

Eliasfrost

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Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2013, 12:15:11 PM »
Hey there, I just want to make a small suggestion for pickpocketing, which works in a very traditional way right now, meaning you try and fail and immediately want to reload your save, this feels grindy and it can be done differently to remove the reloading impetus.
Basically just make it so you either can or can't pickpocket someone without chances, and your perception lets you know if you can. No more grinding.

That eliminates all consequences of a failed pickpocket attempt, I don't know if I agree with that.

But the consequence is usually being shot at by an important NPC, or starting a fight that 20 NPCs participate in, that's not a consequence it's a game over screen.

Whether it is 20 people ganging up on you or a guard escorting you to the station, it is still a consequence for your action. Having a skillcheck dictating the possibility to even perform the action is not only constrictive but it removes one whole dimension of immersion and makes pickpocketing dead and uninteresting. I rarely load a save when I fail a pickpocket attempt (I never pick someone in the middle of the street either, because that's bound to fail) because it adds a certain level of immersion when your actions leave you with the consequence of the person trying to get back to you for trying to steal his/her stuff directly out of her pocket, removing that would make pickpocketing one dimensional and uninteresting.

epeli

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Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2013, 05:19:00 AM »
Hey there, I just want to make a small suggestion for pickpocketing, which works in a very traditional way right now, meaning you try and fail and immediately want to reload your save, this feels grindy and it can be done differently to remove the reloading impetus.
Basically just make it so you either can or can't pickpocket someone without chances, and your perception lets you know if you can. No more grinding.

Savescumming until you get the perfect result isn't the only way to play games.
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RawCode

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Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2013, 12:52:51 PM »
static random where you cant reload to get other result is nice way to find fix this issue.