Author Topic: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13  (Read 3902 times)

hilf

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Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
« Reply #90 on: January 06, 2018, 07:25:11 PM »
The one thing I don't like though, which also confused the ever living fuck out of me is that if anything, I was expecting unique weapons to get buffed across the board, not a few getting nerfed.
Maybe somebody else can let me know why the ones that did get nerfed deserved it because I haven't actually used those ones but nothing about them jumps out at being nerf worthy to me.
I've always thought that unique weapons were underwhelming and I'd like to see them get bumped up a bit in terms of what they have to offer. I wouldn't mind there being more in the game too.
Obviously at the end of the day they should never be able to beat craftable weapons (since you're investing valuable skill points & in game materials & currency into creating them) but as of now they really are pitiful in what they offer.

I'm pretty sure unique weapons are not supposed to match crafted ones, but to exceed auto generated stuff.

We should also not forget weapons have something like level. Low level unique item does not need to be better than high level autogen. Good indicator of item "level" is its durability.
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MirddinEmris

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Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
« Reply #91 on: January 06, 2018, 07:41:41 PM »
The one thing I don't like though, which also confused the ever living fuck out of me is that if anything, I was expecting unique weapons to get buffed across the board, not a few getting nerfed.
Maybe somebody else can let me know why the ones that did get nerfed deserved it because I haven't actually used those ones but nothing about them jumps out at being nerf worthy to me.
I've always thought that unique weapons were underwhelming and I'd like to see them get bumped up a bit in terms of what they have to offer. I wouldn't mind there being more in the game too.
Obviously at the end of the day they should never be able to beat craftable weapons (since you're investing valuable skill points & in game materials & currency into creating them) but as of now they really are pitiful in what they offer.

I'm pretty sure unique weapons are not supposed to match crafted ones, but to exceed auto generated stuff.

We should also not forget weapons have something like level. Low level unique item does not need to be better than high level autogen. Good indicator of item "level" is its durability.

Uniques loose to most of the autogen stuff too. They probably shouldn't be more powerful than crafted stuff, at least top tier ones, but the should be at least comparable to mid tier crafted stuff. Crafted stuff already has huge advantage by being exactly what you want, uniques should be at least somewhat comparable in raw numbers. Otherwise they are nothing more than oddities that don't give you any xp. In all my games i can count on one hand amount of times i used unique weapons for something other than utility, and i often want to because they look cool and often have some nifty stuff in them, but then i look at other stuff i can get and just leave them in a locker at SGS or sell them. They are mostly useless.

hilf

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Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
« Reply #92 on: January 06, 2018, 09:12:19 PM »
Some of them provide something autogen loot does not.

H&K chambers 9mm bullets.
Tommy Gun chambers .44s.
Jawbone and Wasteland Hawk have 150% crit damage. Jawbone's crit chance sucks but it does not matter for Deadly Snares or Aimed Shot.
Kukri has 20% crit chance and can cripple its target.
Dragunov shoots twice per turn.
Steyr only needs 5 STR and has extra range.
Mind Cracker cracks minds.


There's actually a comparison of one gun on wiki:
http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gluck_17

1 more optimal range vs   1 less max damage - i'd rather have range
1% more critical chance vs   1 more AP cost - i'd rather have AP cost, but i'm biased towards cost reductions in video games
10% more critical damage vs   5% less precision bonus - i'd take crit damage; it would be precision but Gluck already has 10%
5 more magazine capacity vs   360 less durability - extra mag capacity without question
1.1 less weight vs   5552 less value - i care very little about 1.1 weight but i don't care at all about value so unique gun wins again

Second most important thing: Neo Luger is of higher quality - 1050 durability vs 1410.
Most important thing: Neo Luger is crafted.


I didn't pick "that one unique that by some miracle happens to be better than crafted weapon", it's first unique i found (if not the only one) that is compared to something on wiki.
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Bruno

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Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
« Reply #93 on: January 06, 2018, 10:03:27 PM »
The uniques should be useful if you choose to skip most of the tech skills. I can see using the K&H MP6 submachine gun for example, and skip high INT and gun crafting.

Tygrende

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Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
« Reply #94 on: January 06, 2018, 10:36:39 PM »
I didn't pick "that one unique that by some miracle happens to be better than crafted weapon", it's first unique i found (if not the only one) that is compared to something on wiki.
It's the only detailed comparison between an unique weapon and a comparable crafted version on the wiki. I made it because Gluck 17 seems to be the only weapon that is very comparable to late game craft I personally gravitate towards, rather than being straight-up inferior or offering something unique that crafts don't have.

I think the main problem with unique guns in general is that smart modules are just way too good to pass up. If you look at other uniques, especially unarmed, some of them are pretty decent and can compete with crafts.

For burst weapons (so ARs and SMGs) smart module is pretty much a must have. The high damage bonus on nearly all attacks is so ridiculously good, it easily outclasses even the burst-specific weapon mods such as the muzzle brake, barrel compensator or forward grip.

For sniper rifles, it's what makes them capable of reliably 1-shoting almost everything in the game with Aimed Shot and Snipe. I tried to experiment with a Rapid Spearhead that uses the barrel retractor instead of the smart module, but sacrifcing the 1-shot reliability of Aimed Shot/Snipe for a bit more close range precision is simply not worth it. The only other mod Spearhead can use is an extended magazine, but that's obviously worthless in comparsion.

That leaves us with pistols. For pure pistol builds, smart module is still one of the superior mods, especially on Hammerers to boost Aimed Shot and Execute damage even further. It's also a must have on a silenced 5mm Neo Luger since it deperately needs every bit of bonus damage it can get.

A 9mm Neo Luger that is supposed to be a sidearm rather than the main weapon is pretty much the only firearm in the entire game where smart module might not be the best choice, but it still would be a good choice.

ShockMonkey

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Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
« Reply #95 on: January 06, 2018, 11:00:29 PM »
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Nope, just an update to core game with some new features (like map) and changes to core mechanics (mostly good)

Any idea when its coming? Homepage say early 2017. I guess thats past.  :)

MirddinEmris

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Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
« Reply #96 on: January 07, 2018, 04:22:21 AM »
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H&K chambers 9mm bullets.
Tommy Gun chambers .44s.

And who gives a crap?) What does it matter what ammo do they use, really? Especially when we are talking about tommy that has awful stats all across the board.

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Jawbone and Wasteland Hawk have 150% crit damage. Jawbone's crit chance sucks but it does not matter for Deadly Snares or Aimed Shot.

Crit damage is nice, but their base damage doesn't really compare to crafted versions, so the point is really mute. Besides, Hammerer already has 125% crit damage, so the difference in that regard is not that big, while the difference in damage is just insane even without using Smart module. I speak as a guy who played with a character who used pistols without crafting. The Jawbone is the same except it doesn't even have real advantage in crit damage since anatomically aware scopes exist, so even low tier crafted crossbows will have better stats all across the board.

Basically, that was my whole point. Unique weapons often has nifty things like high crit chance/damage, some unique effects and so on, but practically speaking they are loosing because their damage and other stats are so pathetically low.


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Kukri has 20% crit chance and can cripple its target.

But low damage and low crit damage, so it's still better to use crafted.

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Dragunov shoots twice per turn.

Yeah, i give you that, since it's the only way for snipers to shoot twice per turn if they can't craft. Still if we compare it to crafted weapons, it wouldn't be even serious comparison.

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Mind Cracker cracks minds.

It cracks ass. Burning psi points or applying debuffs is absolutely useless for playstyle that involves spending 1-2 hits on average to kill the enemy.


Hazard

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Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
« Reply #97 on: January 07, 2018, 09:28:04 AM »
I'm hoping Styg might give at least some of the existing uniques new special abilities, now that there's functionality for that. We already saw the unique Double-barreled Shotgun in the Expedition gameplay video, which had two abilities, choosing which barrel you want to fire and firing them both at once. The obvious problem with most of the unique weapons is that any special abilities or attacks are probably bound to be pretty arbitrary, which may or may not matter much to Styg.

hilf

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Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
« Reply #98 on: January 07, 2018, 09:30:29 AM »
I was comparing unique items to generated ones. I totally agree crafts are better than uniques.

Unique items like Mind Cracker or Kukri might be underperforming due to another problem:

Styg loves damage.
It shows in several places. Weapon damage grows with weapon quality, skill level grows with character level and multiplies weapon damage, attribute points multiply skill level and they grow with character level too.
Second nerf to Taste for Blood did not touch damage at all, it completely removed attack speed instead.
Combo nerf did not touch damage at all but divided stun chance by 5.
Recent buffs to energy/chemical pistols are mostly "throwing damage at the problem". (Attack speed changes for laser and chemguns are in large part unnerfs).
Infused leather got nerfed so leather armors block less damage than before.
Contamination debuff exists.
W2C/JHP bullets exist and were even made craftable so players can use them even when not really needed.
And there's more.


I did a comparison of Syg MPX and autogen Steel Cat (ok, not really it was a crafted Steel Cat with one mod (most autogen have 0 or 1) that can be rolled on generated SMG). Steel Cat had slightly higher quality (durability 2040) and Syg still won:
Slightly lower damage but much narrower damage range;
5% precision + 5% burst vs 10% burst - very close but i slightly prefer 5%+5% because precision works with normal attacks too;
5% more crit damage;
bigger magazine.

Besides, why would i need a crafted or generated weapons (assuming the latter are better then uniques) if unique weapons do totally fine? I've used Syg MPX ona a pistol build in DC and it did fine with standard bullets on new Hard.
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MirddinEmris

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Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
« Reply #99 on: January 07, 2018, 01:51:32 PM »
Well, overall you have good points, but

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Besides, why would i need a crafted or generated weapons (assuming the latter are better then uniques) if unique weapons do totally fine? I've used Syg MPX ona a pistol build in DC and it did fine with standard bullets on new Hard.

You need crafted weapons because you create them to specifically suit your needs. When you craft weapons you have MUCH higher flexibility, which is already a pretty big advantage on top of being able to have unique only to crafted qualities (like smart module). Now when you craft stuff, not only you do things you can't without it, you also outpace anything else so much that not having crafting skill on your character by itself can be considered a huge drawback.

Personally i think that most unique weapons should be on the level of q100 crafted stuff in damage at least to be at least somewhat relevant.

Fenix

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Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
« Reply #100 on: January 07, 2018, 04:13:02 PM »
Or should have high or higher damage but less flexibility?

Mariner666

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Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
« Reply #101 on: January 09, 2018, 01:14:40 PM »

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Dragunov shoots twice per turn.

Yeah, i give you that, since it's the only way for snipers to shoot twice per turn if they can't craft. Still if we compare it to crafted weapons, it wouldn't be even serious comparison.

Actually, not only way.
You can craft Spearhead sniper rifle with Rapid Reloader.
AP cost will be 24.

MirddinEmris

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Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
« Reply #102 on: January 09, 2018, 01:42:36 PM »
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Yeah, i give you that, since it's the only way for snipers to shoot twice per turn if they can't craft.

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Actually, not only way.
You can craft Spearhead sniper rifle with Rapid Reloader.