Author Topic: feedback about my last build  (Read 1073 times)

Bruno

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2017, 08:44:08 AM »
I gave it another thought, and realising acib blob pistol would trigger Deadly Snares (and corrode armor), came to an even thinner spread build:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?AwGloJgVhBmEAcdkEYIhaA7BtiBsGsM4YIALKafiiAJzoMhbyzxMqzqifdmRxW5OEnLpy8ckiiEaIfPCwwshBLUyE0CIA

Attributes:
Str:  3
Dex: 7->8      @lvl12 (9 with Eel sandwich)
Agi:  3
Con: 3
Per:  10->12  @lvl4,8
Will: 8->10    @lvl16,20
Int:  6->7      @lvl24

Feats:
1:   Opportunist
1:   Marksman
2:   Tranquility
4:   Thermodynamicity
6:   Premeditation
8:   Special Tactics
10: Ambush
12: Fatal throw
14: Critical Power
16: Deadly Snares
18: Elemental Bolts
20: Locus of Control
22: Quick Tinkering
24: Bowyer

Offensive all-in, CC machine. Reliable flashbangs (tranquilising bolt if few enemies) and incendiary grenades (or incendiary bolts) for Special Tactics and Ambush respectively. Quick tinkering for melees or for placing mines near the crowd then throw some fireworks. Having 3 sources now (Ambush with good Stealth gear, acid pistols and traps), it should be more realistic to assume I'll be critically hitting quite often.

12 Per instead of 16 however, but CC & Ambush should solve the precision issue. Fatal Throw for that neat execution + 3 AP so that you can shoot 3 times with a 17AP cyclon. No Psychokynesis  since shock bolts should do the job for less AP.

I won't craft Spirit Poison but saved ~40 skill points, much needed elsewhere. No lockpicking/hacking/evasion (tailoring/electronics could be removed but I feel like they are overall better options). I should still be able to try the cool guns, just for fun. A SMG wouldn't be that bad for situations where acid pistol is not needed due to the other 2 sources.

Any thoughts about it?  :)


-Would you pick Pyromaniac instead of Thermodynamicity?
-Is Thermodynamicity AP reduction applied before Tranquility (e.g. Cryostasis for free) or the other way around (Cryostasis for 2 AP)?


And btw I don't know if I should wait for the expansion or the patch prior to it... :-\
I think you are too weak in defense.
Sure you have many options when going first, but your initiative is poor, your health is very poor and no evasion or armor.

I predict that you will have to save and reload a lot, when you get surprised, get an unlucky initiative roll, step on a mine, get a grenade thrown at you, screw up your movement etc...

With such a character you need to be ok with seeing the death screen a lot.

TheAverageGortsby

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2017, 02:50:27 AM »
I'm thinking of rolling a tank psionic build. [...] Should I invest in Psychosis or Tranquility if I plan on taking this build?
Tank builds tend to endure, and endurance builds benefit more from Tranquility.  Burst builds favor Psychosis.  That said, you haven't given enough information for me to be 100% sure what playstyle you'll end up using.  A heavy psychotic psipuncher with strong thermo is perfectly valid and quite dangerous, though you're likely going to want to play around with those base stats just a little.  Despite my opening sentence, if you plan on stacking a very high armor penalty you'd probably benefit more from Psychosis.  If you plan to keep your penalty low with Super Steel (and perhaps Nimble) then definitely go Tranq.

lewis_cb

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2017, 07:29:29 PM »
I think you are too weak in defense.
Sure you have many options when going first, but your initiative is poor, your health is very poor and no evasion or armor.

I predict that you will have to save and reload a lot, when you get surprised, get an unlucky initiative roll, step on a mine, get a grenade thrown at you, screw up your movement etc...

With such a character you need to be ok with seeing the death screen a lot.

Having high Electronics but low Evasion & HP (Psi-Empathy too), would Power Management instead of Tranquility help significatively? Midgame onwards.
+35% shield HP sounds way better than 125 Evasion or a few points in Con (which I can't spare).
Skinner instead of Opportunist is another option, but I can't estimate how good that improvement is, and Opportunist sounds amazing with all this CC.

lewis_cb

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2017, 07:42:18 PM »
Regarding the psi melee, I agree with what has been said above.
High evasion & shield (and possibly things like Yell, or other debuffs) sounds great when you try to have Tranquility up all the time.
High Con (Survival Instintcs +30% crit chance) & metal armor with Psychosis to get as close as possible to 100% chance.

My 2 cents as a str-will-con psier. Superslam, Critical Power & Heavyweight sounds like fun melee crits to me !
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?AwGloJgVhBGUDMIkE5lxk8Y4Jt7ADlh1FjzggHYcUl4AWXGcligkQ5JBnphgGwgBJKjEJNCMFNKEou8CHGD1gUIA
Conditioning, Juggernaut & Stoicism with metal armor so that enemies mostly do scratches to you. No Premeditation tho...
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 07:46:48 PM by lewis_cb »

MirddinEmris

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2017, 07:51:21 PM »
Quote
+35% shield HP sounds way better than 125 Evasion or a few points in Con (which I can't spare).

It's worse actually) Half of the attacks just don't care about shield, because even low frequency module in shield gives a very small amount of damage reduction for low impact attacks. So, any melee or crossbow guy, wouldn't even notice your shield, and with 3 Con + psionic health reduction, aimed shot form a crossbow will often mean instant death.

125 evasion can actually turn into a decent number with stuff like high quality tabi boots and infused siphoner leather armor, especially if you use drugs like Jumping Bean. Though even that would help only so much because a) without dodge, melee guys would still mess you up b) with your health and no decent armor someone sneezing near you can send you to reload screen.

Bruno

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2017, 09:56:11 PM »
Quote
+35% shield HP sounds way better than 125 Evasion or a few points in Con (which I can't spare).

It's worse actually) Half of the attacks just don't care about shield, because even low frequency module in shield gives a very small amount of damage reduction for low impact attacks. So, any melee or crossbow guy, wouldn't even notice your shield, and with 3 Con + psionic health reduction, aimed shot form a crossbow will often mean instant death.

125 evasion can actually turn into a decent number with stuff like high quality tabi boots and infused siphoner leather armor, especially if you use drugs like Jumping Bean. Though even that would help only so much because a) without dodge, melee guys would still mess you up b) with your health and no decent armor someone sneezing near you can send you to reload screen.
Yep, this is unfortunate but true.
My knowledge of underrail is limited, but there are simply a lot of circumstances that you cant control. Like dialogue-initiated combat (no stealth opener, only initiative roll). Or high stealth melee enemies, stabbing you in the back unless you have REALLY good stealth and detection. You cant turn on your shield if you are incapacitated or dead.
A critical hit from an X-bow, like MirddinEmris mentions, or a grenade hitting you right in the body, means instant death if you have so low HPs, no armor or evasion. Stepping on a mine will also happen occationally even if your detection is decent.

I like to play as close to Ironman as possible, and get really annoyed when I die. Usually I could have avoided death, in retrospect, or I screw up by for example stepping in my own bear trap in the middle of a close shave combat.
But I try to make a character who can survive as well as possible. And the weak 3-STR, 3-CON, no evasion/dodge builds so popular here, always see the death screen eventually.
If I were to make a character with three CON, I would always have high AGI, stealth+evasion+dodge. Even this will not save you from psionics always, who cant miss.

If you are cool with the occational quickload, then you'll get by, I suppose.
If not, like me, then you got to plan your character not by "what can I do to my enemies when I have first strike", but "what happens when I get jumped". Being able to survive one round of incoming fire is the best, and that unfortunately means decent or high CON, and/or good armor. This limits your offensive capability, so you have to have a good plan. But this is just my personal preference.

ironicman

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2017, 09:57:55 PM »
Regarding the psi melee, I agree with what has been said above.
High evasion & shield (and possibly things like Yell, or other debuffs) sounds great when you try to have Tranquility up all the time.
High Con (Survival Instintcs +30% crit chance) & metal armor with Psychosis to get as close as possible to 100% chance.

My 2 cents as a str-will-con psier. Superslam, Critical Power & Heavyweight sounds like fun melee crits to me !
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?AwGloJgVhBGUDMIkE5lxk8Y4Jt7ADlh1FjzggHYcUl4AWXGcligkQ5JBnphgGwgBJKjEJNCMFNKEou8CHGD1gUIA
Conditioning, Juggernaut & Stoicism with metal armor so that enemies mostly do scratches to you. No Premeditation tho...
Interesting, but since you're gonna be in melee range wouldn't it be better to swap it out for psionic mania, or force user?

MirddinEmris

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2017, 10:37:08 PM »
A critical hit from an X-bow, like MirddinEmris mentions, or a grenade hitting you right in the body, means instant death if you have so low HPs, no armor or evasion.

Well, at least shield CAN protect you form a grenade, and that what i was talking about.

What bothers me with this build most of all is the though about him fighting in the arena with 11 initiative, no evasion/dodge and 3 Con + psionic health reduction. I mean, it would be a massacre. Especially with Carnifex. Actually, i don't think it is even possible for this build to win at all. Initiative 11 against 29 is 100% loss, since random component goes only as far as 15 (if wiki doesn't lie). Even if he takes Paranoia it's like less than half of a percent chance to win it. Maybe, if he creates some sort of super armor and tries to survive the first round (most probably suffering penalty for not having enough Str fof this armor), but even that is a long shot. I don't think that this build is actually viable for full playthrough)

P.S. Oops, been looking on different build. His has 16 initiative, giving him a wooping 0.44% chance to go first. It'll go up to 9.33% if he takes Paranoia feat.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 10:48:05 PM by MirddinEmris »

TheAverageGortsby

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2017, 03:12:40 AM »
No Premeditation tho...
I would actually go so far as to say any psi build without Premeditation is wrong.  Not saying it's unwinnable, mind you, but if you have psi and use it pretty much every battle, then there is no single perk that is better than Premeditation.

lewis_cb

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2017, 08:40:04 PM »
Wait, dieing in one turn against Carnifex sounds ridiculous. So in 1 turn he gets to close all the distance and kill you? Dex based with steel gloves..like 7 attacks per turn, raw 150 dmg each?

From what I read, he's mechanical melee dmg, in that case shield only blocks 20% of its normal capacity. Then I am wondering..even if I wear Infused Ancient rathound leather & metal boots & helmet I die? wow that's insane.

Besides, if my initiative is 17 (+1 dex) and his is 29, and roll is -+15, that leaves me with -12, so I win 3/15 of the times and he 11/15 (tie 1/15), meaning ~20% chance for me to start? Dunno if I got it right.

At this point, this build offers little variation, except for additionally sacrifying 2 points of Per into Con (+50HP). This made me even more interested in playing it hehe  :)

MirddinEmris

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2017, 09:08:07 PM »
Quote
Wait, dieing in one turn against Carnifex sounds ridiculous. So in 1 turn he gets to close all the distance and kill you? Dex based with steel gloves..like 7 attacks per turn, raw 150 dmg each?

Quite a bit more than 150, he also will entangle (he throws nets) and debuff you with yell. He also has a chance to incapacitate you. He also has 700 health and pretty high dodge/evasion. You don't get to be a legendary champion of the Arena by collecting coupons, you know) Overall he can do what a optimized unarmed build can.

Quote
From what I read, he's mechanical melee dmg, in that case shield only blocks 20% of its normal capacity. Then I am wondering..even if I wear Infused Ancient rathound leather & metal boots & helmet I die? wow that's insane.

Less. Combat gloves ignore 80% of your shield additionally. For the most part, shield will do close to nothing against melee opponents. Depending on the quality of the leather and components, you maybe has a small chance of surviving first round.

Quote
Besides, if my initiative is 17 (+1 dex) and his is 29, and roll is -+15, that leaves me with -12, so I win 3/15 of the times and he 11/15 (tie 1/15), meaning ~20% chance for me to start? Dunno if I got it right.

You have to refresh you memory on how probabilities actually work, mate) You have 1.33% chance of winning the initiative with additional +1 dex. You have to roll at least 14 while he has to roll no higher than 3 (a bit more complex in actual equation, i'm simplifying here) at the same time. Also, i think he wins on tie since he got higher base bonus, but i'm not sure about that. If he doesn't, you get 2.66% of winning initiative.

Quote
At this point, this build offers little variation, except for additionally sacrifying 2 points of Per into Con (+50HP). This made me even more interested in playing it hehe 

Mate, you are still squishy as hell, and he still gonna kill you in one round, most probably. You also reduced your chances of hitting stuff and damage you are gonna deal. At which point you are better playing regular psion.

Also, i already gave you an advice - take Paranoia feat. At the very least, you gonna have reasonable chances of winning initiative (1 in 11), meaning that you can actually have a drop on him and having less reload screens in total in your playthrough (way less).

You are not gonna enjoy it, really, unless you enjoy reloading every fight several times over. Build with no health, no armor, no evasion/dodge, no initiative and little to no stealth....well, you are in for a ride. I think you gonna drop this game way before even getting to Arena.

Tygrende

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2017, 09:50:48 PM »
Also, i think he wins on tie since he got higher base bonus, but i'm not sure about that.
I did a lot of tests and it feels totally random, but enemies tend to go first if a tie happens. Safer to assume it's 1.(3)%.

I agree he will have a really hard time with a build like this. 3 CON + Psi empathy means HP will be as low as it can possibly be, no stealth or high initative means he won't be able to reliably act first. Crafted infused siphoner leather tabis (immunity to immoblization so no bonus damage from Opportunist) and infused pig leather armor with high-density padding (relatively high mechanical DR and bonus DR vs. melee, +1 CON and up to 100+ flat HP bonus on top of that) *might* be enough to make him survive the first turn against Carnifex, not sure though.

MirddinEmris

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2017, 10:17:18 PM »
Quote
Crafted infused siphoner leather tabis (immunity to immoblization so no bonus damage from Opportunist)

Those are must not even because of opportunist, but because without them, he's gonna get entangled on first turn (no evasion) and then die on a second because with him standing in one place, he can't use Quick Tinkering and this is one way for him to keep good old Carni at a distance.

Quote
I agree he will have a really hard time with a build like this.

I'm not sure he will even pass first part. Most OP psi skills will not be available yet and with his defense and stealth...oh, well.

lewis_cb

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2017, 12:08:28 AM »
I checked the probability and you're right, I oversimplified it :( I'll be forced to drop some offensive stuff, damn, I'll think what to leave behind (or ditch it completely).
Thnx for the feedback, you rock !
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 12:22:22 AM by lewis_cb »

lewis_cb

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2017, 06:14:45 PM »
Wait, both fist/knife and crossbow enemies suffer 125% damage resistance & treshold.
So if I could somehow achieve 60-80% mechanical resistance I would actually resist 75-95% of the dmg? metal armor for those combats? skinner?
Would I get near that by the time I get to the Arena? 35 AP ocassionally might not be that bad

Actually I would like to understand Skinner/crafting better:
If I had Q120 Ancient Rathound leather and Q160 fiber, would I get Q200 Infused Ancient leather? and need:
Tailoring:    0.8*120+0.8*160 = 224 ?
Mechanics:               0.2*160 = 32 ?

Then, would I get Q240 Infused Ancient armor (due to Skinner)?
I couldn't get it clear from Destroyor's encyclopedia.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 07:59:58 PM by lewis_cb »