Author Topic: feedback about my last build  (Read 11987 times)

reinhark

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2017, 04:50:38 pm »
Given that this is 7.62mm damage calculation, perhaps it should account for the special bullet - micro shrapnel as well?
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lewis_cb

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2017, 06:53:08 pm »
http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Crossbow_Parts:_Cyclon
http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Crossbow_Parts:_Zephyr

Most dynamic components have quality scaling tables on their wiki pages, at this point only firearms and melee weapons are missing. Gotta get all their formulas and figure out where to put all that info. Maybe on blueprint pages. I'll get to it eventually.

edit:
Nooothing! Well, that used to be the case for the longest time. Crit multiplier applies nowadays. And Elemental Bolts too.

Hi,
I too thank your help a lot Epeli. The wiki makes planning really easy and pleasant. It's superb.
So from what you say I understand I should expect ~Q120 damage for Cyclon/Zephyr, about 39'5/44.
W.r.t. the formula, the crossbow skill multiplier (mXBOW) shouldn't apply to the elemental bolt dmg:

DMG_10AP = 1.25 * mAP * ((1-pCrit)+pCrit*mCrit) *  [mXBOW*dmgBASE + 2*dmgELEM] = 570

It sounds fair considering how much CC you can get from it.

Given that this is 7.62mm damage calculation, perhaps it should account for the special bullet - micro shrapnel as well?
Yeah, that would make it perhaps 50% more? But then at that point I don't know if you would be resorting to W2C bullets  :-\
« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 09:22:21 am by lewis_cb »
"Gorsky 5 mins & theorycraft is done..."
per16dex10 crit bow, chem pistol, utils: is.gd/iNFcdH
per10dex10con9 crit bow, psi: is.gd/QjW36e
wil15str10con9 crit psi, hammer: is.gd/YYaG6z
dex15wil10 psimonk: is.gd/uLXAbD
per12int12dex10 laser, shock pistol: is.gd/5a57ru
dex16agi10 chem SMG: is.gd/D7jGqu

lewis_cb

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2017, 09:17:27 am »
Wait, does critical nowadays also affect elemental damage of e.g. electrical knifes or shock round SMGs, not only special bolts?
"Gorsky 5 mins & theorycraft is done..."
per16dex10 crit bow, chem pistol, utils: is.gd/iNFcdH
per10dex10con9 crit bow, psi: is.gd/QjW36e
wil15str10con9 crit psi, hammer: is.gd/YYaG6z
dex15wil10 psimonk: is.gd/uLXAbD
per12int12dex10 laser, shock pistol: is.gd/5a57ru
dex16agi10 chem SMG: is.gd/D7jGqu

lewis_cb

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2017, 07:41:23 pm »
Oh,
I see now, whenever these weapons make reference to a % percentage it means it will take the total and thus all the modifiers into account.
Whenever I see fixed values then these are isolated (except for special bolts as you say).
Many thanks Epeli! :)
"Gorsky 5 mins & theorycraft is done..."
per16dex10 crit bow, chem pistol, utils: is.gd/iNFcdH
per10dex10con9 crit bow, psi: is.gd/QjW36e
wil15str10con9 crit psi, hammer: is.gd/YYaG6z
dex15wil10 psimonk: is.gd/uLXAbD
per12int12dex10 laser, shock pistol: is.gd/5a57ru
dex16agi10 chem SMG: is.gd/D7jGqu

lewis_cb

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2017, 07:37:37 pm »
I gave it another thought, and realising acib blob pistol would trigger Deadly Snares (and corrode armor), came to an even thinner spread build:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?AwGloJgVhBmEAcdkEYIhaA7BtiBsGsM4YIALKafiiAJzoMhbyzxMqzqifdmRxW5OEnLpy8ckiiEaIfPCwwshBLUyE0CIA

Attributes:
Str:  3
Dex: 7->8      @lvl12 (9 with Eel sandwich)
Agi:  3
Con: 3
Per:  10->12  @lvl4,8
Will: 8->10    @lvl16,20
Int:  6->7      @lvl24

Feats:
1:   Opportunist
1:   Marksman
2:   Tranquility
4:   Thermodynamicity
6:   Premeditation
8:   Special Tactics
10: Ambush
12: Fatal throw
14: Critical Power
16: Deadly Snares
18: Elemental Bolts
20: Locus of Control
22: Quick Tinkering
24: Bowyer

Offensive all-in, CC machine. Reliable flashbangs (tranquilising bolt if few enemies) and incendiary grenades (or incendiary bolts) for Special Tactics and Ambush respectively. Quick tinkering for melees or for placing mines near the crowd then throw some fireworks. Having 3 sources now (Ambush with good Stealth gear, acid pistols and traps), it should be more realistic to assume I'll be critically hitting quite often.

12 Per instead of 16 however, but CC & Ambush should solve the precision issue. Fatal Throw for that neat execution + 3 AP so that you can shoot 3 times with a 17AP cyclon. No Psychokynesis  since shock bolts should do the job for less AP.

I won't craft Spirit Poison but saved ~40 skill points, much needed elsewhere. No lockpicking/hacking/evasion (tailoring/electronics could be removed but I feel like they are overall better options). I should still be able to try the cool guns, just for fun. A SMG wouldn't be that bad for situations where acid pistol is not needed due to the other 2 sources.

Any thoughts about it?  :)


-Would you pick Pyromaniac instead of Thermodynamicity?
-Is Thermodynamicity AP reduction applied before Tranquility (e.g. Cryostasis for free) or the other way around (Cryostasis for 2 AP)?


And btw I don't know if I should wait for the expansion or the patch prior to it... :-\
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 09:02:28 pm by lewis_cb »
"Gorsky 5 mins & theorycraft is done..."
per16dex10 crit bow, chem pistol, utils: is.gd/iNFcdH
per10dex10con9 crit bow, psi: is.gd/QjW36e
wil15str10con9 crit psi, hammer: is.gd/YYaG6z
dex15wil10 psimonk: is.gd/uLXAbD
per12int12dex10 laser, shock pistol: is.gd/5a57ru
dex16agi10 chem SMG: is.gd/D7jGqu

TheAverageGortsby

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2017, 02:22:43 am »
Tranquility does apply after, so you do get Cryostasis for 0 AP with Thermodynamicity.

lewis_cb

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2017, 07:06:17 pm »
That's pretty pretty nice. Thnx for the pic !
"Gorsky 5 mins & theorycraft is done..."
per16dex10 crit bow, chem pistol, utils: is.gd/iNFcdH
per10dex10con9 crit bow, psi: is.gd/QjW36e
wil15str10con9 crit psi, hammer: is.gd/YYaG6z
dex15wil10 psimonk: is.gd/uLXAbD
per12int12dex10 laser, shock pistol: is.gd/5a57ru
dex16agi10 chem SMG: is.gd/D7jGqu

ironicman

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2017, 11:04:57 pm »
Unrelated to this thread, but I'm thinking of rolling a tank psionic build. My starting stats are 8/3/3/5/3/10/8 so I can go for metal armor, and I want a lot of base int for a tech skill boost. I want to be able to craft morphine shots, metal armor and a good energy shield going by the time I enter Depot A. I'm probably gonna be investing into melee as well for a sledgehammer as an offhand weapon. Should I invest in Psychosis or Tranquility if I plan on taking this build?

Bruno

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2017, 08:44:08 am »
I gave it another thought, and realising acib blob pistol would trigger Deadly Snares (and corrode armor), came to an even thinner spread build:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?AwGloJgVhBmEAcdkEYIhaA7BtiBsGsM4YIALKafiiAJzoMhbyzxMqzqifdmRxW5OEnLpy8ckiiEaIfPCwwshBLUyE0CIA

Attributes:
Str:  3
Dex: 7->8      @lvl12 (9 with Eel sandwich)
Agi:  3
Con: 3
Per:  10->12  @lvl4,8
Will: 8->10    @lvl16,20
Int:  6->7      @lvl24

Feats:
1:   Opportunist
1:   Marksman
2:   Tranquility
4:   Thermodynamicity
6:   Premeditation
8:   Special Tactics
10: Ambush
12: Fatal throw
14: Critical Power
16: Deadly Snares
18: Elemental Bolts
20: Locus of Control
22: Quick Tinkering
24: Bowyer

Offensive all-in, CC machine. Reliable flashbangs (tranquilising bolt if few enemies) and incendiary grenades (or incendiary bolts) for Special Tactics and Ambush respectively. Quick tinkering for melees or for placing mines near the crowd then throw some fireworks. Having 3 sources now (Ambush with good Stealth gear, acid pistols and traps), it should be more realistic to assume I'll be critically hitting quite often.

12 Per instead of 16 however, but CC & Ambush should solve the precision issue. Fatal Throw for that neat execution + 3 AP so that you can shoot 3 times with a 17AP cyclon. No Psychokynesis  since shock bolts should do the job for less AP.

I won't craft Spirit Poison but saved ~40 skill points, much needed elsewhere. No lockpicking/hacking/evasion (tailoring/electronics could be removed but I feel like they are overall better options). I should still be able to try the cool guns, just for fun. A SMG wouldn't be that bad for situations where acid pistol is not needed due to the other 2 sources.

Any thoughts about it?  :)


-Would you pick Pyromaniac instead of Thermodynamicity?
-Is Thermodynamicity AP reduction applied before Tranquility (e.g. Cryostasis for free) or the other way around (Cryostasis for 2 AP)?


And btw I don't know if I should wait for the expansion or the patch prior to it... :-\
I think you are too weak in defense.
Sure you have many options when going first, but your initiative is poor, your health is very poor and no evasion or armor.

I predict that you will have to save and reload a lot, when you get surprised, get an unlucky initiative roll, step on a mine, get a grenade thrown at you, screw up your movement etc...

With such a character you need to be ok with seeing the death screen a lot.

TheAverageGortsby

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2017, 02:50:27 am »
I'm thinking of rolling a tank psionic build. [...] Should I invest in Psychosis or Tranquility if I plan on taking this build?
Tank builds tend to endure, and endurance builds benefit more from Tranquility.  Burst builds favor Psychosis.  That said, you haven't given enough information for me to be 100% sure what playstyle you'll end up using.  A heavy psychotic psipuncher with strong thermo is perfectly valid and quite dangerous, though you're likely going to want to play around with those base stats just a little.  Despite my opening sentence, if you plan on stacking a very high armor penalty you'd probably benefit more from Psychosis.  If you plan to keep your penalty low with Super Steel (and perhaps Nimble) then definitely go Tranq.

lewis_cb

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2017, 07:29:29 pm »
I think you are too weak in defense.
Sure you have many options when going first, but your initiative is poor, your health is very poor and no evasion or armor.

I predict that you will have to save and reload a lot, when you get surprised, get an unlucky initiative roll, step on a mine, get a grenade thrown at you, screw up your movement etc...

With such a character you need to be ok with seeing the death screen a lot.

Having high Electronics but low Evasion & HP (Psi-Empathy too), would Power Management instead of Tranquility help significatively? Midgame onwards.
+35% shield HP sounds way better than 125 Evasion or a few points in Con (which I can't spare).
Skinner instead of Opportunist is another option, but I can't estimate how good that improvement is, and Opportunist sounds amazing with all this CC.
"Gorsky 5 mins & theorycraft is done..."
per16dex10 crit bow, chem pistol, utils: is.gd/iNFcdH
per10dex10con9 crit bow, psi: is.gd/QjW36e
wil15str10con9 crit psi, hammer: is.gd/YYaG6z
dex15wil10 psimonk: is.gd/uLXAbD
per12int12dex10 laser, shock pistol: is.gd/5a57ru
dex16agi10 chem SMG: is.gd/D7jGqu

lewis_cb

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2017, 07:42:18 pm »
Regarding the psi melee, I agree with what has been said above.
High evasion & shield (and possibly things like Yell, or other debuffs) sounds great when you try to have Tranquility up all the time.
High Con (Survival Instintcs +30% crit chance) & metal armor with Psychosis to get as close as possible to 100% chance.

My 2 cents as a str-will-con psier. Superslam, Critical Power & Heavyweight sounds like fun melee crits to me !
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?AwGloJgVhBGUDMIkE5lxk8Y4Jt7ADlh1FjzggHYcUl4AWXGcligkQ5JBnphgGwgBJKjEJNCMFNKEou8CHGD1gUIA
Conditioning, Juggernaut & Stoicism with metal armor so that enemies mostly do scratches to you. No Premeditation tho...
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 07:46:48 pm by lewis_cb »
"Gorsky 5 mins & theorycraft is done..."
per16dex10 crit bow, chem pistol, utils: is.gd/iNFcdH
per10dex10con9 crit bow, psi: is.gd/QjW36e
wil15str10con9 crit psi, hammer: is.gd/YYaG6z
dex15wil10 psimonk: is.gd/uLXAbD
per12int12dex10 laser, shock pistol: is.gd/5a57ru
dex16agi10 chem SMG: is.gd/D7jGqu

MirddinEmris

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2017, 07:51:21 pm »
Quote
+35% shield HP sounds way better than 125 Evasion or a few points in Con (which I can't spare).

It's worse actually) Half of the attacks just don't care about shield, because even low frequency module in shield gives a very small amount of damage reduction for low impact attacks. So, any melee or crossbow guy, wouldn't even notice your shield, and with 3 Con + psionic health reduction, aimed shot form a crossbow will often mean instant death.

125 evasion can actually turn into a decent number with stuff like high quality tabi boots and infused siphoner leather armor, especially if you use drugs like Jumping Bean. Though even that would help only so much because a) without dodge, melee guys would still mess you up b) with your health and no decent armor someone sneezing near you can send you to reload screen.

Bruno

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2017, 09:56:11 pm »
Quote
+35% shield HP sounds way better than 125 Evasion or a few points in Con (which I can't spare).

It's worse actually) Half of the attacks just don't care about shield, because even low frequency module in shield gives a very small amount of damage reduction for low impact attacks. So, any melee or crossbow guy, wouldn't even notice your shield, and with 3 Con + psionic health reduction, aimed shot form a crossbow will often mean instant death.

125 evasion can actually turn into a decent number with stuff like high quality tabi boots and infused siphoner leather armor, especially if you use drugs like Jumping Bean. Though even that would help only so much because a) without dodge, melee guys would still mess you up b) with your health and no decent armor someone sneezing near you can send you to reload screen.
Yep, this is unfortunate but true.
My knowledge of underrail is limited, but there are simply a lot of circumstances that you cant control. Like dialogue-initiated combat (no stealth opener, only initiative roll). Or high stealth melee enemies, stabbing you in the back unless you have REALLY good stealth and detection. You cant turn on your shield if you are incapacitated or dead.
A critical hit from an X-bow, like MirddinEmris mentions, or a grenade hitting you right in the body, means instant death if you have so low HPs, no armor or evasion. Stepping on a mine will also happen occationally even if your detection is decent.

I like to play as close to Ironman as possible, and get really annoyed when I die. Usually I could have avoided death, in retrospect, or I screw up by for example stepping in my own bear trap in the middle of a close shave combat.
But I try to make a character who can survive as well as possible. And the weak 3-STR, 3-CON, no evasion/dodge builds so popular here, always see the death screen eventually.
If I were to make a character with three CON, I would always have high AGI, stealth+evasion+dodge. Even this will not save you from psionics always, who cant miss.

If you are cool with the occational quickload, then you'll get by, I suppose.
If not, like me, then you got to plan your character not by "what can I do to my enemies when I have first strike", but "what happens when I get jumped". Being able to survive one round of incoming fire is the best, and that unfortunately means decent or high CON, and/or good armor. This limits your offensive capability, so you have to have a good plan. But this is just my personal preference.

ironicman

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Re: feedback about my last build
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2017, 09:57:55 pm »
Regarding the psi melee, I agree with what has been said above.
High evasion & shield (and possibly things like Yell, or other debuffs) sounds great when you try to have Tranquility up all the time.
High Con (Survival Instintcs +30% crit chance) & metal armor with Psychosis to get as close as possible to 100% chance.

My 2 cents as a str-will-con psier. Superslam, Critical Power & Heavyweight sounds like fun melee crits to me !
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?AwGloJgVhBGUDMIkE5lxk8Y4Jt7ADlh1FjzggHYcUl4AWXGcligkQ5JBnphgGwgBJKjEJNCMFNKEou8CHGD1gUIA
Conditioning, Juggernaut & Stoicism with metal armor so that enemies mostly do scratches to you. No Premeditation tho...
Interesting, but since you're gonna be in melee range wouldn't it be better to swap it out for psionic mania, or force user?