Author Topic: Reducing the cardboardy feeling *spoilers*  (Read 3513 times)

nssptr

  • Probably not a Spambot
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
Reducing the cardboardy feeling *spoilers*
« on: November 22, 2016, 08:51:14 pm »
I've just finished Underrail (well, finally, that took me quite a while). I personally think it's a great game and I could sing a lot of praise to it, but that's not what I want to do here. I wanted to point out some flaws fixing which would really make the game perfect. To be honest, I have realistic expectations and I don't expect that the final game will get some big patch, fixing everything and catering to mine particular tastes. At the same time I hope that my suggestions would make at least some difference for the upcoming expansion, or so I hope.

Combat system, inventory management, attributes, all that is blameless. I won't even mention that at all. My qualms are mostly with the immersion and the dialogues. I think that the whole setting - Underrail as a whole with its history, little details and references, the cities and the considerate amount of freedom - all of that is beautifully done. What really breaks the immersion though is the somewhat limited reactivity to the past players choices, especially those outside of established quest lines. What I mean is - whenever all the quests in the area are done, the area feels a bit like a theater scene after the play is over - props are still in place, but not much more.

For example, the people in the SGS still had the same dialogues even late in the game, Ezra wold still have only the same greyed out dialogue options, fellow stationers would still repeatedly congratulate me on clearing the outposts, even when I finished the Core City quest-line. There's hardly any incentive to revisit old locations. One other example, which hurt my immersion the most - after finishing the Free Drones questline I decided to help them even more and clean up the whole fort Apogee by myself. That was possible, the game allowed me to do this, I mercilessly exterminated the whole station. And in return I got absolute silence from the Drones, from the other people in the Underrail, even from the endgame slides. Nobody in the whole southern Underrail noticed. As a player it takes a little bit of effort to do these things - go out of your way to backtrack into the old areas or clean up the whole base of protectorate troops. It would be very nice if the game acknowledged the players effort even in little ways - like an offhand remark or a small conversation. After all we are thankfully not limited by voice-acting constraints and amen to that.

Since I am posting in the suggestions board, I will try frame my suggestion in a clearer form. Of course the game has limited budget and a small team of people working on it. Of course I don't expect the walls of text at the scale of Planescape Torment. But just going over the list of most notable things player could do and making the NPCs react to that (like clearing out the fort Apogee, or finishing major quests in the area and returning back after some time has passed) - that's something I (and I hope others too) would really like to see.

Tygrende

  • Oculite
  • Tchortist
  • **
  • Posts: 477
  • Karma: +66/-1
    • View Profile
Re: Reducing the cardboardy feeling *spoilers*
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2016, 08:57:03 pm »
Have you tried talking to everyone after getting out of Deep Caverns?

Most NPCs in the whole Underrail should have new dialogue options about Faceless retreat and everyone from SGS should also have new dialogue options about Tanner disappearance.

nssptr

  • Probably not a Spambot
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Reducing the cardboardy feeling *spoilers*
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2016, 10:53:18 pm »
Most NPCs in the whole Underrail should have new dialogue options about Faceless retreat and everyone from SGS should also have new dialogue options about Tanner disappearance.

Please understand, there are times when this reactivity is handled in a nice way. I am not saying these new dialogue options and interactions do not happen - they do, mostly when you really expect them to be there.

What I am lamenting is the absence of these interactions in the case when the player goes our of his own way and looks, or does something not completely expected (cue the aforementioned fort Apogee genocide). As another example - after killing Tchort, I went inside both Faceless and Tchortist camp - they were empty, and Faceless had even emptied their armory and containers. Hey, that's a nice touch, though I. Okay, four faceless centaurs were still sitting in the pen - well who knows those faceless, maybe they valued the contents of their armory more than their centaurs - I can't judge here. But then I went to find the crazy hermit Leo and inform him that Tchort is dead, that now he can leave the deep caverns or something of that sort - and there were no new dialogues options at all.

I guess many more players would want to raid faceless armory than those that would want to speak to the hermit - I understand why one of those things - making sure that faceless camp is empty rather than adding a dialogue option to a hermit - would be given more priority. But it's exactly the case I am making here - when player goes and does something outside of what most players do, game world stops being responsive.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 10:58:37 pm by nssptr »

Tygrende

  • Oculite
  • Tchortist
  • **
  • Posts: 477
  • Karma: +66/-1
    • View Profile
Re: Reducing the cardboardy feeling *spoilers*
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2016, 10:11:50 am »
Quote
But then I went to find the crazy hermit Leo and inform him that Tchort is dead, that now he can leave the deep caverns or something of that sort - and there were no new dialogues options at all.
But that's not true. If you come back to Leo you will find out that he doesn't remember you anymore and that happens only after you kill Tchort.

Tygrende

  • Oculite
  • Tchortist
  • **
  • Posts: 477
  • Karma: +66/-1
    • View Profile
Re: Reducing the cardboardy feeling *spoilers*
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2016, 11:22:59 am »
One less mystery in my life.

nssptr

  • Probably not a Spambot
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Reducing the cardboardy feeling *spoilers*
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2016, 08:16:51 pm »
I wasn't going to reply to this because I can't talk about upcoming stuff but before you go on any further about Leo, I want to let you know that he has always had post-Tchort dialog, but unfortunately that dialog branch is inaccessible due to a bug. The bug was found ages ago, but the last patch was even longer ago.

Wow. Could it be that the GOG version had not been updated? I have the 1.0.1.10 version, which seems to be the latest one I can get from them.

Nonetheless, even if the stale Leo dialogue is a bug, you do agree that absence of response to fort Apogee clearance is a problem? I've found a similar thing happen to this guy http://underrail.com/forums/index.php?topic=1898.msg10640#msg10640 too. Do you know if that had been fixed too?

Edit: Oh, wait, I seem to have misread you comment. Do you mean that Leo's dialogues is an open bug which just had not been fixed?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2016, 08:19:05 pm by nssptr »

nssptr

  • Probably not a Spambot
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Reducing the cardboardy feeling *spoilers*
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2016, 10:39:20 pm »
I generally agree with your thoughts regarding world reactivity and I think you'll be pleased with the next version.

Oh, thanks, that's good news. It's not a big thing to be worried about, but I find it nice that devs seem to share some of my concerns. Would be interesting to see how the next version looks like :)

TΛPETRVE

  • Scavenger
  • ***
  • Posts: 159
  • Karma: +16/-5
  • Obey the Schnibble!
    • View Profile
Re: Reducing the cardboardy feeling *spoilers*
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2016, 07:15:54 pm »
One of Underrail's greatest strengths in my opinion is what others have ironically labelled its biggest weakness; the nigh-complete absence of logorrhoea. So it shouldn't be too hard to overhaul and flesh out the reactive dialogue in the game over time, which is already being done, and has been done in previous iterations.
But the problem is, indeed, it zlots at Vlurxtrznbnaxl.

Fenix

  • Godman
  • ******
  • Posts: 1211
  • Karma: +58/-25
    • View Profile
Re: Reducing the cardboardy feeling *spoilers*
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2016, 11:30:59 pm »
And don't forget to populate those damn six outposts near SGS!  :P