Author Topic: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan  (Read 32900 times)

Eldakar

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2016, 06:01:20 pm »
So luckily i didnt start for real a crossbow run. Huh so its not so nice eh? I am  playing now smg/unarmed guy.. pretty good.. unarmed helps to conserve ammo. Also found assault rifle, but its not as good as my smg. Also just arived to Junkyard and I see sniper rifles. Not sure if I will buy one.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2016, 06:03:09 pm by Eldakar »

Wildan

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2016, 07:14:43 pm »


The equipment should consist of:
1 damage dealer crossbow - Scoped (anatomically-aware) Super Zephyr Crossbow. Tornado is stronger but has fewer, weaker criticals, a 2% CtH penalty and also important - 15% instead of 10% move and shoot penalty. Ideally you'll be shooting first and then moving but now and then you won't be able to do so because sometimes you'll have to hide behind a corner to lure the enemy in your trap, and when he steps on it he'll be rooted and you likely won't see him unless you step out from cover again. Also on some rare occasion a bug happens where the enemies can fire at you but you can't fire back unless you move. This problem is not special to crossbows and can happen with any ranged weapon.
1 special bolt spammer crossbow - Scoped (anatomically-aware) Pneumatic Cyclone Crossbow. I'll get more to it later.

Armor and boots both made of infused syphoner leather which provides good heat and acid defenses but also lots of dodge and evasion bonus - as a glass cannon you'll need lots of it. Utility belt which gives you 2 additional utility slots so you'll have 4 (5 with Quick Pockets). You'll fill all those slots with special bolts. Smart night vision goggles to boost your special attacks and actually hit under low light conditions. You can use a shield to your own liking. I prefer a low frequency efficient shield emitter for most of the time.

I'll break down some of the not so obvious feat choices:
Snipe - Usually it's seen as a sniper feat and many people (including the popular youtube guide maker Nerd Commando) like to skip it but I cosider it as essential for crossbows as well. While snipers are way stronger by base damage alone (plus they can be made with smart modules) crossbows have one significant advantage - they are completely silent weapons. In your first round you have a good chance to silently kill small groups of 2-3 enemies without alerting anybody else on the map, so with more quick encounters you'll use Snipe more often than with a sniper.

Blitz - Crossbows are slow weapons and as with any other build it's essential to plan ahead on how you will make most out of your AP. Your first combat round is pretty clear. You'll use Special Tactics ability for the extra attack and open the combat with Snipe, Aimed Shot and Kneecap Shot - all from your damage dealer crossbow. From the second round on you'd normally be left with 2 shots per round. This is where your quick Cyclone crossbow comes in play. Made with the pneumatic reloader it fires for 17 AP per shot so together with Blitz and adrenaline shot drug you'll have 90 AP for that round which allows you to fit in 5 (!) shots with the Cyclone (17 x 5 = 85). With the effect of adrenaline shot alone you'll still be able to fire 4 times with it (68 AP) and even when fatigue kicks in you can still shoot twice for 34 AP out of 35 available. As a side note - In tight areas I like to bottleneck enemies and block them of with traps while dealing with fatigue. Often it will buy you enough time till it wears off.

Quick Pockets - No longer neccessary since patch 1.0.1.4 as the special bolt stack limit was greatly improved (It used to be only 5). I replaced the feat with Concussive Shots. This also opens up the trappers belt as a viable alternative now if you find yourself doing well with one less stack of special bolts. (thanks epeli)

Pack Rathound - As a crossbow user there is no reason to raise STR above 3 but you'll depend on traps alot and unfortunately they also weigh alot just as the bolts, batteries etc if you carry many. I don't mind a bit of inventory management so I can live without it until level 20 but don't go down to DC without it. Even if you disregard loot completely you won't be able to prepare properly. If you're having financial problems you might want to take it a few levels earlier.

Kneecap Shot - While it's pretty mediocre for pistols and SMGs it's amazing for crossbows as you can afford to have high perception which gives you better damage. It count's as a special attack and is therefore affected by smart goggles bonus. With high perception you have a pretty good hitchance and crossbows have a better range than most weapons, meaning you can attack from afar but the average enemy affected by Keecap Shot will have to spend most, if not all his AP to close in - very good to kite away when fatiqued. It's also the best attack against melee opponents as you don't wont to have those point blank in your face because then will suffer either move and shoot or close quarter penalty attacking them.

If you're worried about survival and want to focus more on defense, at level 12 you can raise INT from 6 to 7 instead of PER and replace Quick Pockets and Kneecap shot with Power Management and Skinner, but even as a permadeath (ironman) guy I prefer the more offensive approach I posted above.

Feats I see here mentioned I would not recommend:
Ambush - While it's pretty good it's too situational to be reliable and requires some experience. Which tile counts as illuminated and dark is not always as obvious but if you tend to have lots of incendiary bolts you can consider taking it late game for DC instead of Kneecap Shot. Remember however that with heavy trap usage and Deadly Snares you'll hit critically anway so it reduces the usefulness of this feat. It's better for snipers. Same reasoning applies to Recklessness.
Trap Expert - With high enough traps skill there are not many enemies that will detect your traps so It's mostly a waste to pick this in a feat starving build like this.
Nimble - I use it for most dodge/evasion builds but there is simply no room for it. With syphoner leather armor you only get 5% armor penalty so your Snipe and dodge/evasion won't suffer much. Sure, you also lose the bonus to them but it's not good enough here. Besides, 10 agi + 1 from food I recommend as your supplement is plenty. If you want it consider Skinner first.

Distribution of skill points:
Always max out crossbows, dodge, evasion and stealth. Raise traps so far that you can not only detect but also recover traps for yourself (you need 20 points above the trap disarming difficulty).
Crafting is obviously mandatory, not only for the crossbows, armor, etc but also for the traps and special bolts. Thanks to 6 INT, junkyard surprise and 15% crafting bonus from the Core City basement bonus you don't need to max out crafting skills, not even close. I found it there is even room to raise enough chemistry (60 effective skill) to craft Mk III incendiary bolts which are amazing in tight spaces. Too good to be left out. Chemistry should be your last priority however. You'll also need some biology for bear traps and thanks to the crafting bonuses I mentioned above putting 39 points in biology is enough to translate it to 65. For chemistry it's 38 points (equals 60 effective with bonuses).
With all this there is enough room to raise both lockpicking and hacking to effective skill of 100 and that's a very solid value.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 06:03:12 pm by Wildan »

eLPuSHeR

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2016, 08:04:45 pm »
Awesome guidelines Wildan. Do you have similar advice for other builds?

Eldakar

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2016, 10:13:05 pm »
I play it now Wildan, just got lvl 6 when i entered Junkyard. So far it's good. As for fast loss of durability it is not a problem so far - found 6 crossbows so far. Only now i had to repair.

Sanger

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2016, 01:03:53 am »
There is one problem with them. Equipped in your utility slots they're are limited to stacks of 5 max.

???


Concussive shots - It's awesome actually and would be my next choice if I could fit it in but there are more important feats.

Pack Rathound is more important than Concussive Shot? I never had issues with carry weight with my crossbowman. I didn't carry dozens of traps around either though, only used them in difficult fights that couldn't win with crossbow alone.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 01:21:28 am by Sanger »

dirtman

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2016, 02:43:50 am »
my last playthrough was a psi crossbow build since i dislike traps and absolutely love thought control so here are my thoughts on it. :D

to be honest, i passed the whole underrail using mk1 shock and incendiary bolts. started using my ridiculous stash of several hundred mk2 and mk3 bolts only in dc. also most of the time i used monsoon crossbows since they have the best looking art (yeah, really a good reason). :) anatomically aware scope is a must have upgrade and i used pneumatic reloader more since super string boosts only mechanical damage.

build:
st 3
dx 5
ag 6
cn 3
pe 10
wi 8
in 5

------------------

crossbow 15
evasion 15
dodge 15
stealth 15
hacking 15
lockpicking 15
chemistry 15
though control 15

------------------

aimed shot
marksman
sprint
concussive shots
ambush
opportunist
special tactics
elemental bolts
sharpshooter
critical power
premeditation
locus of control
skinner
power management

the feats are approximately in the correct order. i put points into will to get locus of control and intelligence for crafting feats. if i remember correctly i didn't raise perception above 10 and the last 2 points went into agility. chemistry was the first crafting skill to get to 20 and mechanics to 10 for incendiary bolts (i think the metathermics guy at sgs sells the blueprints) and then later electronics (the blueprint was in gms but don't know if it's random loot or not).

now that i read Wildan's post, blitz seems like a good idea but i managed without it. i also second his opinion on infused siphoner leather stuff because it's great.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 02:47:28 am by dirtman »

Wildan

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2016, 03:06:41 am »
@Sanger
Thanks for pointing that out. Tbh I haven't played with crossbows in last few weeks and completely missed the stack limit change. That makes Quick Pockets somewhat less usefull ofcourse. I will edit the build accordingly and replace the feat with Concussive Shots as it wins here.

Pack Rathound is indeed worth taking. The 3 STR weight problem is not only about traps (which I do like to recover as I disable them). A stack of 100 regular bolts weighs 5, special bolts even 10. Then there is food, batteries, bandages, drugs, TNT/jackhammer and other minor stuff which encumbers pretty fast with the limit of 130, often giving little room to loot stuff like poisons and explosives needed for crafting. I can live without it on a 3 STR knife, pistol or SMG character but not here. If other players can deal well with such pain in the ass, by all means they should postpone it to level 24 and eventually take something else instead ofcourse. :P

@ eLPuSHeR
I have posted other builds as a reply in quite a few posts but some of those are old and possibly outdated by now. Maybe it would be a good idea to make a new topic containing effective builds. I'd put them in the first post and as the gameplay progresses with each version and we exchange ideas and suggestions, I would alter the post to improve and keep the builds up to date.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 03:08:13 am by Wildan »

player1

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2016, 03:32:11 am »
Some players also like to have a stack of armors in their inventory, to fit every situation (stealth, ambushes, prolonged fights, specialized protection). In those situations traits like Pack Rathound help a lot.

Heck, my STR8 wielding characters uses Pack Rathound, and his base inventory takes around 140 in weight.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 03:35:39 am by player1 »

Wildan

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2016, 03:58:41 am »
Some players also like to have a stack of armors in their inventory, to fit every situation (stealth, ambushes, prolonged fights, specialized protection). In those situations traits like Pack Rathound help a lot.

Heck, my STR8 wielding characters uses Pack Rathound, and his base inventory takes around 140 in weight.

Good point with the armors. Despite the 30% armor penalty Chemical Assault Unit armor is the best choice for DC overall, as bio/acid damage becomes quite an issue. It's also not exactly lightweight.

Sanger

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2016, 05:46:01 am »
Only time I've ever carried more than one armor piece was the first time I did DC, where I lugged around a biohazard suit for a bit. Never carry around stuff like TNT or jackhammer unless I know I need it either, weighs too much. Even on feat-light builds I've never bothered with Pack Rathound and always prioritise stuff like Nimble instead. 130 weight has always seemed like way more than necessary to me unless you absolutely must loot everything. I rarely loot anything after Junkyard myself unless it's a piece of equipment to replace something I'm already wearing... selling loot in this game is just a chore and quests give you more than enough cash to buy everything you need anyway.

Batteries are like 5 weight for 50 which is way more than you actually need to carry anywhere ever, meds weigh practically nothing unless you're trying to carry hundreds of hypos for some reason... what can I say, I never seen the need to carry tons of stuff in Underrail.

Eldakar

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2016, 09:14:01 am »
Im fighting dogs in underground of Junkyard and have 30% chance to hit them point blank.. Eh.. and one hit takes 1/4 of their life..

Sanger

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2016, 12:49:10 pm »
Crossbow has penalty to hit at point blank, like rifle. You want to attack from mid/long range. Also crossbow is silent, you use this to advantage by attacking lone enemies from stealth, killing them and then going away to sneak again, repeat.

The build given above leaves skills I would suggest taking ASAP until later than I would take them - if you take Snipe at level 6, Depot A is easy to run and gun through. You will probably have to carry many traps and spam them instead.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 01:00:21 pm by Sanger »

Dizzy

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2016, 04:33:17 pm »
Overall, I am not very impressed with crossbows so far. I will keep playing to see how they evolve over time, but I have the suspicion that crossbows cannot be the main weapon and may need of some sidekick aid.

I agree, it would certainly be nice if that weren't the case though.

Wildan

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2016, 06:21:04 pm »
The build given above leaves skills I would suggest taking ASAP until later than I would take them - if you take Snipe at level 6, Depot A is easy to run and gun through. You will probably have to carry many traps and spam them instead.

Initially I had it at level 6 and it was meant to stay there but after moving some feats around I didn't put it back. My bad, the order is correct now.


Overall, I am not very impressed with crossbows so far. I will keep playing to see how they evolve over time, but I have the suspicion that crossbows cannot be the main weapon and may need of some sidekick aid.

I agree, it would certainly be nice if that weren't the case though.

Crossbows can ONLY be a main weapon. They don't share their weapon skill with any other branch so it doesn't make sense to additionally invest in melee or guns. They also need alot of feats to be really effective so you'd most likely end up with two gimped weapon classes instead of a one well built.

If you want a sidekick use a sniper next to any of the firearms. Unlike crossbows they need very few feats and base stats. They are designed as a support weapon in mind. They have hefty penalties and need to be used strategically, not for every single enemy in the game. There is little point shooting at every rathound etc with a 24+ AP sniper round.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 06:25:01 pm by Wildan »

Eldakar

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Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2016, 07:07:01 pm »
I droped my crossbow run in favor of my new knife guy. What feat is better on lvl 10 taste for blood or cut throat?

Edit: Nevermind, picked taste for blood. Going so far pretty nice im level 11 now. Got kukri and going for Ratking.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 07:59:40 pm by Eldakar »