Author Topic: Lack of Directions  (Read 4857 times)

Atchodas

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Lack of Directions
« on: June 09, 2015, 06:53:33 PM »
Hey , i wanted to say that i am not a fan of hand holding in rpg games ( such as quest markers you see from other side of the map etc ) but in underrail every time you get a quest to go to some specific location , directions are pure trolling :D . For example find Plant X to get Batteries Y , go EAST from SGS , East where? East from the top ? east from the bottom ? there is not a single exit to the east , i mean if quest was find out the secret hideout of group x i would understand that the only direction is east of somewhere , but the guy wants me to go to specific plant to get specific batteries surely he can tell me exit sgs trough that exact door and go north turn east then north again then east again , also i can instantly tell him that i been at foundry but found nothing but i cant tell him wtf guy if you want me to run errands for you give me directions where to go , it is kinda immersion breaking to wander those tunnels pointlessly , underrail has its fair share of backtracking there is no need to implement more .
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 06:59:51 PM by Atchodas »

Fenix

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Re: Lack of Directions
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2015, 06:58:40 PM »
You have compass, red arrow points to the North.
That mean that East from SGS is at bottom of monitor.

But yeah, you are right - we need map!
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 07:00:45 PM by Fenix »

Atchodas

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Re: Lack of Directions
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2015, 07:01:07 PM »
I use compass all the time , still directions are kinda vague , Map is one thing harder to implement than quest giver simply saying you need to go up and trough the first outpost and then EAST , instead of saying East of SGS lol

It is kinda hard to imagine tho without any map or overview of the world what is where , also i laughed my ass off at some map people painted on steam dont think you can use that to navigate anything . Also it is immersion breaking when you wander for hours and come back to guy to ask directions and only thing to say is i been at the plant and found nothing , when you actually havent found plant yet , also its so close to starting zone :D i probably cleared whole lower underrail going "east" lol
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 08:28:02 PM by Atchodas »

epeli

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Re: Lack of Directions
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2015, 06:12:25 AM »
If I recall correctly, you get fairly clear directions and hints from Harold (and/or Bret) when you first talk to him about it.

The quest objective in your Notes menu (N) is also detailed enough to answer your questions:
  • Harold wants you to check out an old battery recycling plant located in the caves, straight to the east from SGS. See if you can find some optoelectric nuclear cells, related equipment, blueprints or similar and bring it to him.

So grab some TNT charges, exit through the cave tunnel exit on level 9, head east, past the crossroad watchpost where you first met Old Jonas. Keep goingeast for a couple of zones and you'll find the ruined battery plant.

Underrail is largely a game about exploration, and sometimes you may get vague/confusing directions or none at all. But not in this case - the directions are clear and precise. :\
[[Underrail Wiki]] // character build tool: underrail.info.tm (thread)

Elhazzared

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Re: Lack of Directions
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2015, 08:37:03 AM »
By the sounds of it you need TNT charges to blow up a cave wall. That is quite a lot of guess work that you actually have to blow open a passage to get ther. Being a quest you'd expect it to at least say, you'll have to blow open a passage otherwise it seems normal to assume that the way you are supposed to go is clear.

epeli

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Re: Lack of Directions
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2015, 09:15:15 AM »
I'm pretty sure either Harold or Bret explicitly mention that you might need explosives to clear the cave tunnels leading east, that's what I meant by the hints they give you. Tanner also tells you that you can now get TNT charges from the armory and you might need them to clear some passages. It shouldn't come as a surprise to players at that point in the game. Keep in mind that the folks inside SGS don't know how much damage the earthquake caused.
[[Underrail Wiki]] // character build tool: underrail.info.tm (thread)

Elhazzared

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Re: Lack of Directions
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2015, 10:13:40 AM »
Well if they alude to it then it does seems clear enough.

I do believe having a map would be nice, if nothing else to be able to fully map out the underrail and see if you missed any area but that aside it seems the directions at least in that specific case are good enough.

Eliasfrost

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Re: Lack of Directions
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2015, 11:10:34 AM »
I agree it would be nice with a world map to understand the relativity between zones. It can be hard to organize that mental map after a while with such a big game, especially when you're going through cave systems, you easily get lost.

Gman

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Re: Lack of Directions
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2015, 05:20:09 PM »
It's a game that takes place underground with little natural light, cave-ins are a constant threat of altering maps, and even spotty communication between nearby stations.  Maps? Lot of effort, dangerous work, and probably a short payoff before the next quake or herd of creatures completely invalidates previous information for just one tunnel.

Elhazzared

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Re: Lack of Directions
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2015, 05:55:29 PM »
Actually no if you really think about it. indeed maps are likely to become obsulete with cave ins and new passages becoming open, but think about it for a second. Mapping is dangerous and that makes maps rare and expensive. It's a job that would pay very well for people who want to scavenge or find out about other ways to get around underrail without using the conventional paths. It also means that if you have an older map that shows some place that is now inaccessible you might want to find a way to get to it as what is on the other side might be worth the trouble.

That alone is reason enough to map underrail but as far as your character goes, why would he not map the places he goes through if nothing else for the reason not to get lost?

Atchodas

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Re: Lack of Directions
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2015, 06:58:54 PM »
Issue was not about TNT charges , issue i had was guy says east of SGS , you go down to lower underrail there are 2 different ways east from sgs both blocked by rocks that needs TNT charges and both are completely wrong way to go , meanwhile the guy wants you to go back to starting area. At the beginning when you are told to find Old Jonas for first quest they say you he is at first outpost , i mean it would be an obvious thing for Harold to say go trough the first outpost to the east he needs those batteries not me so he could try harder with directions :D saying trough the first outpost to the east is a logical thing at least i think that way  , also my issue was that instantly after accepting the quest i could tell him str8 away that i was in the factory and found nothing , kinda strange because i just accepted quest from him and not even left the room , also i dont agree with Map as a thing in Underrail some people gives good points why undergrounds shouldnt have precise maps(Unless acquiring the map is some neat quest / or you have to make it from few pieces or something like that ), there could be some stuff like graffiti on the walls directing the way or something just not the map , but the quest givers could be more precise with directions hell you are new guy in SGS know nothing etc , maybe some dialogue option like : Could you tell me how to get to the plant again ? and then he says go up and trough first outpost , the thing that got me really was that i was sure that after opening that tunnel with drill my journey will lead me to lower underrails for some reason oh boy i was wrong .
Also thumbs up for Factory/Camp Hathor quests they are much different from what i had in first act , variety is great , the bot controls were not even that bad , and the puzzle was not some punishment , it was kinda obvious but not annoying in any way .
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 07:10:18 PM by Atchodas »

Elhazzared

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Re: Lack of Directions
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2015, 07:16:25 PM »
I don't see why you'd be against a map. It is merely a convinience tool and saves people the trouble to actually draw one themselves. It is also something that I imagine modders will do if the developers do not.

Now I played this long ago and basicly there was only the SGS area and the junkyard area. While I could keep the whole map in my head at the time, it was already getting to the point where a little bit more and I'd probably just get lost all the time with so much twist and turn. As the game is now I'd probably be getting lost all the time simply because there is no mapping tool and that would force me to make a map myself in a paper (or several papers).

Besides it is human nature to map things in order to prevent getting lost. It doesn't matters if the map becomes unreliable at a later point, you'll just edit it as needed, however as a human being it's normal that you'll do whatever you need to do in order to prevent getting lost and possibly dead as a result of it. Call it survival instinct if you will.

Atchodas

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Re: Lack of Directions
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2015, 09:10:46 PM »
One of the reasons i would prefer directions ( painted on walls or just simple road signs ) because that would be easier to implement at current stage of development IMO ( Also that would make sense , that citizens of underrail mark directions with some spray cans etc ) , as the game is almost finished. i Agree that remembering every turn in underrail can be quite complicated , so are directions given from quest givers especially because there are 2 exits from SGS one in the bottom and one in the top and then something like "go east" gives you 3 different places to go ( 2 different ways to the east from lower underrail all of it rock blocked ) i can only imagine it gets worse when you reach core city .

Also now i realize most of my confusion came from TNT charges being gated by the game until you get drill parts , they unblock the railroad and you get tnt charges at the same time and for some reason it feels like you should be going to the bottom to lower underrails not to the top , it just felt that way , also as soon as you exit lower underrail there is a Rock blockade to the east which can be very confusing and feels the right way to go , is the "gating" for TNT charges really a must ? I mean underrail is hard game not like you could venture too far without levels anyway , maybe there could be a possibility for TNT charges blueprint to appear in Junkyard traders inventory randomly like special bullet blueprints , and then they would appear after drill parts in Lucas inventory permanently , also if you went to camp Hathor before the drills you could just tell the guy at SGS that they are having trouble with insects and that is probably why they are not answering all you get for that is 100 exp anyway.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 09:23:47 PM by Atchodas »

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Lack of Directions
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2015, 10:38:19 PM »
Underrail is "Up".
Caves are "Down".
Given that you don't ever need to actually visit the caves, technically speaking, after the junkyard quest, making said caves less accessible seems to be a good way to help players get lost less, actually.  :-X
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epeli

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Re: Lack of Directions
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2015, 10:16:12 AM »
I'm still hoping/waiting for a devlog about maps. But they'll have to finish creating the areas before making maps of them... :P

And I understand Atchodas's concerns.
It's the same for most quests - if you get stuck for one reason or another or stop playing for a while and then return, NPCs won't have anything to say to you while you're working on their quests. I imagine it can be really jarring in some cases. Right now there's only your notes. If you could just ask what you were supposed to do again, that would be an improvement.

One of the reasons i would prefer directions ( painted on walls or just simple road signs )
There are road signs and wall labels where they make sense, meaning that they won't point to long-abandoned complexes like the battery recycling plant, only inhabited areas like Camp Hathor.

is the "gating" for TNT charges really a must ?
Yes, absolutely. If the player could travel everywhere (it's not just the caves, you can get everywhere through lower underrail's tunnels with some TNT) before the south railroad tunnel is cleared, it would cause a number of bugs and probably even break down the game's narrative structure. Also, the early game up to Depot A seems to be meticulously balanced for the content you can reach before returning the drill parts.
[[Underrail Wiki]] // character build tool: underrail.info.tm (thread)