Author Topic: Classify Throwing Knives as "Light Weapons" for Dexterity Purposes  (Read 1559 times)

SagaDC

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Pretty much what the subject says. I recently started putzing around with a high-stealth knife build, and there's some natural synergy between using both thrown and hand-held knives. The issue is that Throwing Knives are considered grenade-like weapons, and as such they appear to have a fixed AP cost (15). The main appeal of knives is that they're fast weapons, especially when you're stacking Dexterity - but even at default values, the slowest knife (12 AP) costs less Action Points than it takes to throw a single throwing knife.

This isn't really game-breaking, of course, but it's something that really jumped out at me during my current test-run. Throwing knives certainly benefit from the scaling damage that increases with your Throwing skill, but their slow speed and limited utility makes them a bit sub-par as even secondary weapons. Ripper + Fatal Throw can certainly be a fun feat combo when it comes to finishing off badly wounded foes, but that soaks up two feat slots AND can't be acquired until Level 10. Pinning is certainly interesting, but is far from reliable (35% proc) and has a very short duration (1 turn). Split Spare is probably the best of the throwing feats, but it's also somewhat unpredictable (since it randomly selects your "secondary target"). Having all four feats can, of course, make throwing knives much more appealing - but again, that requires using up four of your precious feat slots, all to buff up a sub-par base weapon.

I think the ideal "fix" might be to simply have Throwing Knives follow the current Dex-based AP reduction scheme. Unless my math is off, that means that by Dex 10, it would cost about 11AP to throw a knife. Not a huge difference, but a notable one that makes sense from an in-game logic standpoint. It might also be ideal to have Tabi Boots reduce the AP cost for using throwing knives by 1AP (the same way it currently reduces the AP cost for melee attacks), since the link between ninjas and throwing knives is fairly obvious.

An alternate solution might be to introduce a feat that reduces the cost for using Throwing knives, though by itself it might not make for a very appealing feat (some secondary effect might be required to make it more appealing). It would also add to the already hefty investment required to currently make throwing knives more "usable", since it would be a fifth feat stacked atop the other four. A feat that reduces the AP cost to use all throwing utility items might be ideal, though, since then it would be appealing to all throwers (Nets, Grenades, Caltrops, Knives) rather than just knife throwers.

EDIT - An different "simpler" alternative might be to introduce a new "Knife Strap Belt", akin to the Bullet Strap Belt that already exists in-game. It could even have near-identical effects - one extra utility slot, +5 to Intimidation, and then an AP discount for using throwing knives (and their poisoned counterparts) in place of the reloading bonus.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 02:08:23 AM by SagaDC »

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Classify Throwing Knives as "Light Weapons" for Dexterity Purposes
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2015, 11:32:25 AM »
I'd go one step further and just classify throwing knives as weapons. Knives, if you will. It'd also allow them to stack with some weapon feats.
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hilf

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Re: Classify Throwing Knives as "Light Weapons" for Dexterity Purposes
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2015, 01:14:04 PM »
DEX reduces AP cost for throwing knives. See it's in game description.

I'd go one step further and just classify throwing knives as weapons. Knives, if you will. It'd also allow them to stack with some weapon feats.
Cut-throating with throwing knife might be OP.
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epeli

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Re: Classify Throwing Knives as "Light Weapons" for Dexterity Purposes
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2015, 02:15:45 PM »
It seems that Styg wants to keep throwing knives as an entirely different class. But classifying them as weapons, ranged weapons and knives for the purposes of feat compatibility would be interesting.

I'd go one step further and just classify throwing knives as weapons. Knives, if you will. It'd also allow them to stack with some weapon feats.
Cut-throating with throwing knife might be OP.

Attack abilities and utilities can't be used at the same time, so only other abilities like buffs and passive feats could be affected.

Here's a list of feats that would be affected, unless I missed something:
- Recklessness (affects weapons)
- Paranoia (affects weapons)
- Survival Instincts (affects weapons)
- Critical Power (affects weapons)
- Hit and Run (affects ranged weapons)
- Ambush (affects ranged weapons)
- Weaponsmith (affects knives)

All those crit feats remind me that the current throwing weapon stat representation is somewhat lacking. Their crit stats and impact speeds aren't listed anywhere in-game.
- Throwing knives seem to have a small base crit chance (perhaps 5%) that's not listed anywhere. At least with grenades and three-pointer, you can extrapolate your crit chance.
- You won't find throwing weapon critical damage bonus anywhere. I can only assume it's 100% because that used to be the default critical damage bonus for everything.
- Impact speeds are also completely omitted. They're low for throwing knives, medium for shrapnel and high for explosions.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2015, 02:46:16 PM by epeli »
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hilf

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Re: Classify Throwing Knives as "Light Weapons" for Dexterity Purposes
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2015, 06:04:25 PM »
It seems that Styg wants to keep throwing knives as an entirely different class. But classifying them as weapons, ranged weapons and knives for the purposes of feat compatibility would be interesting.

I'd go one step further and just classify throwing knives as weapons. Knives, if you will. It'd also allow them to stack with some weapon feats.
Cut-throating with throwing knife might be OP.

Attack abilities and utilities can't be used at the same time, so only other abilities like buffs and passive feats could be affected.


True, but if they get classified as weapons i'd expect them to go into hand slots.
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UnLimiTeD

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Re: Classify Throwing Knives as "Light Weapons" for Dexterity Purposes
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2015, 08:01:40 PM »
Well, I meant more for them to be classified as Item type weapon.
I suppose the second part was .... open to interpretation.
So yes, not actual knives.
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SagaDC

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Re: Classify Throwing Knives as "Light Weapons" for Dexterity Purposes
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2015, 11:30:13 PM »
DEX reduces AP cost for throwing knives. See it's in game description.

Huh, really? No idea how I missed that. I don't remember seeing it in any of the descriptions, but I'll admit I was mostly reliant on the Wiki for some of the information (which must not be up-to-date on that subject). I only ran my most recent "stabby-throw" character up to Level 2 or 3 before switching off to a different concept. Now I feel kind of silly.

Though, regardless, the throwing knife mechanics could probably still benefit from some smoothing out. As a few others have stated, their use as a tactical slot item instead of a hand-slot item leads to some odd and counter-intuitive behavior. As epili stated, there's a lot of information about throwing knives that gets hidden from the character, due to the way tactical slot items are displayed.

EDIT - I just did some brief testing with a high Dex and low Dex character, and it does appear that throwing knives are indeed counted as light weapons. The reason I didn't notice it before is because I was operating under the assumption that they cost 15AP to throw by default. Apparently this is not the case (it's 18AP). At Dex 10, it still costs a fairly hefty 14AP to throw one. Not terrible, but not really great either.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 04:58:02 AM by SagaDC »

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Classify Throwing Knives as "Light Weapons" for Dexterity Purposes
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2015, 04:25:20 PM »
So if they are "light weapons", can you test if they work with recklessness etc.?
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