Author Topic: Let's talk about new PSI System!  (Read 18225 times)

Mindless

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Let's talk about new PSI System!
« on: March 27, 2015, 09:39:51 PM »
New system was made newbies life with underrail "mages" easier and in the same time harder at the high levels.
bla-bla-bla. My main reason for this topics is new psi costs rebalance.

Telekinetic Punch and Pyrokinesis costs 50(60 with Psychosis) PSI points - 1/2 of "new" PSI bar(100). All others(that i have obtained) costs a lot less...
Cryostasis cost - 10, Forcefield - 20, Electrokinesis - 15(14?), Neural Overload - 5 (xD)
So Cryostasis, Neural Overload and Electrokinesis - generally "spam" abilities for now(psi regen is 20/turn)


P.S. I can somehow understand Pyrokinesis cost but Punch!?


Greep

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Re: Let's talk about new PSI System!
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2015, 09:59:04 PM »
Well punch can be quite potent with the force user feat but yeah 50 is way too high.  Kinda surprised that electro is considered spam, as it is a free stun every turn.  If the aim is to make all psi users feel the pain, they should switch electro and punches' costs, as this also hits psycho builds without.. feeling weird xD  On the other hand, that would make killing dreadnaughts with a pure psi build literally impossible so... I dunno lol.

Pyro kinesis.. I dunno that seems high.  I get that it can seriously mess with people if you have the pyro feat... but still.  It is very luck based since maybe nobody gets flamed :/  On the other hand, a metathermics psi band with muffler can cut that down quite a bit for those who like metathermics feats.

Anyways, looks like electronics/biology and int 7 is a staple now for pure psi.  Can't not have a muffler xD
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 10:02:31 PM by Greep »

epeli

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Re: Let's talk about new PSI System!
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2015, 10:02:22 PM »
All of a sudden, decreased psi cost became a desirable stat instead of something that might save you a psi hypo or two in the long run... :P
You can get those 50s down to 33 or even less fairly easily with muffled headband and psi beetle armor. Then there's also the new neurology feat.

Keep in mind that the point of the new system was to curb the excessive CC spam that made competent psionics completely untouchable. So far the new system feels reasonable to me, but I agree that the costs could probably use tweaks. Pyrokinesis wasn't one of the problematic skills (its not a guaranteed CC) and Metathermics in general is the weakest psi discipline. I'm not sure what's going on with Punch either, since it's more of a heavy nuke than CC. Electrokinesis is better for stunning anyways and it provides aoe damage while at it. Punch is just a nice opener with premeditation.


PS. I just updated the new psi costs to the wiki.

PPS.
Kinda surprised that electro is considered spam, as it is a free stun every turn.
Yeah. It's actually 3 free stuns in some cases (premed+tranquility) ;)
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 10:05:17 PM by epeli »
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Greep

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Re: Let's talk about new PSI System!
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2015, 10:03:29 PM »
I don't think anyone's complaining, just talking about it.  Honestly, non-psi users might be more interesting now that thick skull suddenly made light armor "non-subterfuge, non-psi" builds not terrible.

Edit: ugh, this is awful.. I want to playtest psi, but I think the other builds are more interesting lol
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 10:12:40 PM by Greep »

Styg

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Re: Let's talk about new PSI System!
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2015, 10:26:48 PM »
The general idea is that CC abilities would cost little to medium AP and a lot of PSI, while the primary attacking abilities would cost little PSI (making them spammable) and would have their AP cost balanced by damage-per-turn output. Now, I know that there are abilities that have multiple purposes, number of targets, targeting mechanics, secondary effects, etc, so it's not as clean cut as this, but this is the general guiding principle.

Regarding T-Punch, I personally have tested the new psi early game using a Psychokinetic-Melee build and I feel that the costs are about right. When specced right, T-Punch acts as a powerful nuke as well as CC so I think that cost is justified.

Mindless

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Re: Let's talk about new PSI System!
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2015, 10:50:54 PM »
Regarding T-Punch, I personally have tested the new psi early game using a Psychokinetic-Melee build and I feel that the costs are about right. When specced right, T-Punch acts as a powerful nuke as well as CC so I think that cost is justified.
Neural - 5, Cryostasis - 10, Punch - 50.
What is the logic here?! yes, T-Punch slightly more powerfull than other nukes but! Witout feat it is just med damage with stun and it has short range. and 3t colldown. It can't be so expensive!
Inbalanced cost it any way. 30 - max for this one. Pyrokinesis is far more deserves 50 cost than Punch.

All of a sudden, decreased psi cost became a desirable stat instead of something that might save you a psi hypo or two in the long run... :P
You can get those 50s down to 33 or even less fairly easily with muffled headband and psi beetle armor. Then there's also the new neurology feat.
I will better up my headband with crit+crit damage. +15% crit from Psyshosis and +30% from the new feat (at 30% life) and you can go hunting b*tches.
Psi-Beatle is ok but all costs you a precious skill points.
and Metathermics in general is the weakest psi discipline.
Ahem, not the weakest one
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 10:57:17 PM by Mindless »

Greep

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Re: Let's talk about new PSI System!
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2015, 06:40:07 AM »
Now that stasis is 45 and pyrokinesis is 50, I think it may be best to completely forego metathermics on a pure will character.  Anyone have the same feeling?  You need electrokinesis for bots if you have no combat skills, and you need thought control because.. well thought control.  I'd rather stick the points into throwing or dodge or crafting.  Not to say metathermics is bad these days, just bad on a 10+ will character.  I can totally see it being used on any other character.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2015, 07:18:53 AM by Greep »

Fenix

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Re: Let's talk about new PSI System!
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2015, 02:11:38 PM »
What that "CC" thing is?

Neural - 5, Cryostasis - 10, Punch - 50.
What is the logic here?! yes, T-Punch slightly more powerfull than other nukes but! Witout feat it is just med damage with stun and it has short range. and 3t colldown. It can't be so expensive!

You're right cost gap is very large, but it can be solved in other way - Neural - 10, Cryostasis - 15, Punch - 45. ))
This gap feel not that terrible, huh? )

______________

I think all discipline can be balanced further, like - Psychokinesis is a strong damage source only at close range Metatermics is a crowd control for robots, Thought Control - same for living beings.
Actually it is true, but damage dissipating with range can be added for Psychokinesis.

We need to do more specialized for each discipline that had to use it all.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2015, 02:40:17 PM by Fenix »

epeli

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Re: Let's talk about new PSI System!
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2015, 03:14:41 PM »
Neural - 5, Cryostasis - 10, Punch - 50.
What is the logic here?!
Neural Overload - 5, Cryokinesis - 10, Electrokinesis - 15.
I suppose that's the logic here :P Psychokinesis actually got the strongest spammable ability.

and Metathermics in general is the weakest psi discipline.
Ahem, not the weakest one
Which one would you say is the weakest?

I'm not saying it's weak or bad on its own, but it's not quite as good as the other two if you use and compare all three on a single character.
* Thought control gives you a plethora of very powerful CC and completely irresistible damage against organic enemies. Completely useless against robots.
* Psychokinesis provides fairly good tools for dealing with robots, plus more useful CC and damage.
* Metathermics is also nigh useless against robots, yet its CC is inferior to thought control. But it has good damage against organics that don't resist cold/heat much.

I think it may be best to completely forego metathermics on a pure will character.  Anyone have the same feeling?
Mm, I don't think metathermics should be skipped if you go for maximum will and intend to mainly use psionics. You won't be using cryostasis as often, but there are still situations where metathermics shine.

What that "CC" thing is?
Crowd Control. Stun, incapacitation, fear, immobilization, slows, even force fields and doppelgangers. Anything that lets you limit the number of active enemies.
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Greep

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Re: Let's talk about new PSI System!
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2015, 07:06:26 PM »
Well, it's a matter of psi points.  The two biggies of metathermics have mainly been stasis and kinesis.  If those are disproportionally expensive, then they  drop me from the same psi pool that I can use mind control and psycho.  So I think it's best to dump it entirely.  When it comes to being able to use the psi in super rare circumstances, then I'd rather have some other ability, like throwing grenades accurately (one molotov = one pyrokinesis) or dropping everyone's skills by 50% with my super high will intimidation.

Dumping it also has some advantages beyond skill use.  It now somewhat pays to use a psychokinesis focused headband later in the game and a thought control focus in the beginning, as opposed to uni-psi.

Furthermore, you could just stop at 35, then you still get the stasis, but dump the now less useful pyro.  Which is sort of what I have to do since I don't want to reroll -.-

However, if I were to make a more varied psi character, one that stayed at will 8-12, I'd probably forego thought control and go psycho and metathermics. 

But who wants to give up LoC enrage bursts :D
« Last Edit: March 28, 2015, 08:52:15 PM by Greep »

Mindless

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Re: Let's talk about new PSI System!
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2015, 01:46:03 PM »
All of a sudden, decreased psi cost became a desirable stat instead of something that might save you a psi hypo or two in the long run... :P
I can't agree with this =P (except some of hard long battles, which I can probably count on my fingers).
You can get those 50s down to 33 or even less fairly easily with muffled headband and psi beetle armor. Then there's also the new neurology feat.
Beetle armor is mandatory for good "pure psi-build"(cuz it have no good alternatives); muffle(i prefer crit damage+chance) and neurology(many other more interesting feats to take) is not.
Keep in mind that the point of the new system was to curb the excessive CC spam that made competent psionics completely untouchable. So far the new system feels reasonable to me, but I agree that the costs could probably use tweaks. Pyrokinesis wasn't one of the problematic skills (its not a guaranteed CC) and Metathermics in general is the weakest psi discipline. I'm not sure what's going on with Punch either, since it's more of a heavy nuke than CC. Electrokinesis is better for stunning anyways and it provides aoe damage while at it. Punch is just a nice opener with premeditation.
With the right feats and good capacity of psi-busters you will not feel difference.
Neural Overload - 5, Cryokinesis - 10, Electrokinesis - 15.
I suppose that's the logic here :P Psychokinesis actually got the strongest spammable ability.
???
Which one would you say is the weakest?
Thought Control in my build is most useless one, i prefer Psychokinesis+Metathermics combo =P I'm really not a fan of long scheme like "bla-bla-bla i will stun one enemy, than debaff him, than DoT and THAN i will kill him". My plan is easy "I see enemy? i kill enemy!".
mb i will post my favorite psi-build later :)
I think it may be best to completely forego metathermics on a pure will character.  Anyone have the same feeling?
True, in my opinion you can more easily forego Thought Control =P
Regarding T-Punch, I personally have tested the new psi early game using a Psychokinetic-Melee build and I feel that the costs are about right. When specced right, T-Punch acts as a powerful nuke as well as CC so I think that cost is justified.
In the Psi-Melee hybrid build you can even put T-Punch for 100 psi-points cost. For hybrid and pure builds must be some kind of difference in price.(cuz they all have the same 100 points psi-bar)


I played a bit with my universal Psi-Build and have some suggestions for Psi-balance:

A) Psi Costs Overhaul (Primary):
Cost fore psi-spells:
Neural Overload 5 -> 8(10)
Cryokinesis 10 -> 12(15)
Force Field 20 -> 25
Telekinetic Punch 50 -> 40 (mb 50 with Force User, he-he).
Cryostasis 50 -> 40
Pyrokinetic Stream 25+10 -> 40+10
Electrokinesis 15 -> 30(35) but no further cooldown cuz it's primary anti-robot spell.

Can't say anything about Thermodynamic Destabilization(cuz it's bugged) and Telekinetic Proxy(cuz it's weird) and Thought Control mental powers.

B) Psi Pool Overhaul (Primary):
- 100 psi is basic value on start;
- +10(5) psi for each level;
- +10 psi for each point in Will above 5;
- -10 psi for each point in Will below 5;

Why mighty Ezra must have the same psi-pool as some weak willed(3 will) newbie(1st level) who just started his way?

C) Psi Regen Overhaul (Secondary):
- 10(or 5) basic regen for every characters;
- +1(or 0.5) psi regen for each point in Will above 5;
- +1(or 0.5) psi regen for each point in Will below 5;
OR
- Make it percent based value like 5%(for example) of yours psi-pool but only up to 75%(for example). At Super-super Max(500 pool - 25 lvl and 20 will) it will be 25/turn.

Current regen is a bit much for now for the start, i think.

D) Some feats rework (Secondary):
- Make Shroomhead feat to be like "the collector's feat". For every picked mindshroom you'll get +2 max psi and some psi-rerestoration effect.
- Make the Neurology feat is % based or improve it effect.

E) Some more high lvl psi-powers mb? There is even no bio, energy, acid damage type abilities and small amount of electro(neural is not exacly eletric), mechanical(only T-Punch and Cryostasis is 1/3 mechanical) damage type powers.

Greep

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Re: Let's talk about new PSI System!
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2015, 09:15:31 PM »
Well, on a pure will, if you're totally munchkining and don't want to die much, thought control is the one to keep just because of LoC.  LoC + enrage/mental breakbdown/ fear is just devastating.  It does prolong the fight, but you always win it against non-bots.  If enrage or LoC get nerfed, then it's not quite so obvious which psi discipline to dump.  But dumping one does make sense because of the quite limited psi pool.

Elhazzared

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Re: Let's talk about new PSI System!
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2015, 09:57:01 PM »
Speaking from personal taste. I don't like dumping any psi skill at all. The greatest advantage of psi is how it adapts to all situation and where psi fails (electrokinesis, I'm looking at your cooldown!) the crossbow with the special bolts covers it.

I haven't played in a while... Or rather I tried in the previous patch but meh, you all know my reason so I won't beat a dead horse. The way Psi is now sounds like it's getting quite underpowered with an incredibly limited psi pool and very high costs of some spells. When a hybrid of sniper/gunner with a bit of grenade skills already oneshots mostly everything and has a powerfull AoE and other builds like pistol builds and melee builds incredibly strong and in many ways can be overpowered. It feels like Psi just keeps getting more and more restrictions for no reason.

Greep

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Re: Let's talk about new PSI System!
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2015, 10:02:20 PM »
Heh, well I think it's starting to show how long it's been since you've played ;)  Grenades are pretty awful after level 16 or so, though they're at least worth throwing I guess ;)  Grenadier is nice I guess for the ability to emp dreadnaughts faster.

And yeah before this patch, going triple psiker on 10+ will was a no brainer.  Now?  Really hard to say, at the very least it makes sense to not make all three, probably just 2, although TC is pretty worthless if it isn't maxed.

Elhazzared

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Re: Let's talk about new PSI System!
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2015, 10:22:56 PM »
Yeah I really don't know the usefulness of grenades now. Before they were pretty good. Now I am not sure. Are the mk5 grenades that bad though? I know you can't buy them but they should deal a lot of damage if you can craft them.