Author Topic: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released  (Read 22319 times)

Styg

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Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2015, 08:04:28 AM »
How about limiting Blitz AP gains to third of your normal maximum MP?

That way Blitz is kept in check and there's no need to touch low AP costs or Fancy Fotwork.

I didn't tweak the AP costs and FF just because of Blitz, they were a problem on their own as well.

Greep

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Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2015, 08:21:41 AM »
Haha guys, you're so easy to troll. It's just an April Fools joke!
Styg is not joking here  >:(
Setting minimal AP cost to 4 is making it 4 times as bad and even Sid Meier/Obsidian balances things by 'just' doubling and halfing them.
_3_ will be ok)
Wait is this pre or post lightning punches? I.e. 4 ap or 2?
I think it's a hard limit of any ap cost)
Well it's 17 attack at 4 ap, so.. doesn't sound too far off anyways.  Stunlocking 8 people with cheap shots is kinda silly.
17? oO 17x4=68? Sutnlocking 8 people? with 15% chance to incapacitate?
It's easier to throw a flashbang into the crowd =P

Yeah adrenaline gives 70 ap, so you can get 17 shock fists in at 4 per round.  Given you can then run around a corner and not take any damage because of fancy footwork, doesn't that feel fair?  As far as stunlocking people with 1 ap fists, I bet hilf can tell you what that's like ;)

hilf

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Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2015, 08:23:08 AM »
Hehe yeah i know it wasn't a joke. I was joking myself (:

How about limiting Blitz AP gains to third of your normal maximum MP?

That way Blitz is kept in check and there's no need to touch low AP costs or Fancy Fotwork.

I'm not sure.
Limiting Blitz like that would remove synergy of this feat and FF (if i understood You right) and synergies are good things to have.


Well, lower AP limit for attacks must be changed, attacking for 1 AP is silly. Making it 4 seems too high, however.


Quote
As far as stunlocking people with 1 ap fists, I bet hilf can tell you what that's like
If You can attack for 1 AP You don't care about stunlocking at all :D
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 08:31:14 AM by hilf »
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Loriac

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Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2015, 08:32:44 AM »
My only question about the new minimum ap cost is whether it should be 4ap or 3ap (and I'm just throwing this out there, I don't know which is better really).

Dex 15, lightning punches, tabi boots previously gave an ap cost of 3 for unarmed (10 - 4 - 2 - 1) which now would be bumped up to the min of 4.  Dex 11 I think is the minimum for 3ap reduction on fists, which along with the other factors would hit the minimum 4ap cost.

I'm not sure if this is good or bad to be honest: 4ap / attack = 12.5 attacks per round, 3ap = 16.7 attacks per round.  The real cheese (in my opinion) kicked in when you got down to 2ap.

The upshot is that a pure fists build now has 4 stat points freed up (the additional benefits of going from 11 to 15 dex are much harder to justify when you're not getting the extra attacks per round imo).  Conversely, total damage output has gone down but then again once you factor in feats like expertise its quite possible that combat is unbalanced even at the 12.5 attacks per round level.

Given that other melee weapons gain relatively from this change (e.g. ap reductions from taste for blood are unlikely to be useful now for fist builds), its possible that fist base damage may need to be adjusted to compensate.  Again, I'm not really sure about the full impact here, but I recall that fists used to be considered poor damage relative to other options, and these changes may undo some of the other balancing that was done.

Mindless

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Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2015, 08:56:48 AM »
Yeah adrenaline gives 70 ap, so you can get 17 shock fists in at 4 per round.  Given you can then run around a corner and not take any damage because of fancy footwork, doesn't that feel fair?  As far as stunlocking people with 1 ap fists, I bet hilf can tell you what that's like ;)
We can't count adrenaline as usual case, only "Self buffs".)
1 ap is horrible i agree with this but even with 1ap you will stunlock 1(cost)*50(ap)*0.15(probab)=7.5(ok 8 people). This is cool indeed! but... you can throw flshbang for this effect(mb lesser not 8 but 6) and only for 15 ap. So stun is not the main case here =P
If You can attack for 1 AP You don't care about stunlocking at all :D
That's the spirit!
Dex 15, lightning punches, tabi boots previously gave an ap cost of 3 for unarmed (10 - 4 - 2 - 1) which now would be bumped up to the min of 4.  Dex 11 I think is the minimum for 3ap reduction on fists, which along with the other factors would hit the minimum 4ap cost.
Dex 15 can be achieved either by lvl 20 or lvl 16 + temp +1 Dex. For fists weapon 3 - min and i can't see the way you can get even lower ap costs... So 3 - is good MIN.

epeli

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Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2015, 09:51:48 AM »
I didn't tweak the AP costs and FF just because of Blitz, they were a problem on their own as well.
Alright, sounds reasonable. I think I just realized your reason for quadrupling the min AP cost.

Limiting Blitz like that would remove synergy of this feat and FF (if i understood You right) and synergies are good things to have.
It would be the same as the current system in that regard. Blitz would still convert your current MP, only its limit would be dictated by your normal max MP rather than being static 20.

But it was just a hasty idea I threw around without giving the whole thing much thought.
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Fenix

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Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2015, 01:32:22 PM »
_3_ will be ok)

I think that too, but we need testing.
Even if 4 AP as minimal cost will be unchanged, we at least got rid of one perk - Lightning Punch, because now there is no sense to take it.
I prefer to see the positive side in everything. )

The upshot is that a pure fists build now has 4 stat points freed up (the additional benefits of going from 11 to 15 dex are much harder to justify when you're not getting the extra attacks per round imo).

...or we have 4 stat points, true.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 01:47:33 PM by Fenix »

Greep

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Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2015, 02:11:38 PM »
So... seems like supersteel might be a bit too hardcore, finally got a 150 quality and a 130 quality after 7 tries ;)




Whoos is it kickass when you reinforce it with tichrome.

And with the insulated tichrome helmet coming up that makes immunity to energy and mechanics, 50 dr in fire, as well as ~25 dr in everything but bio :D
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 02:18:58 PM by Greep »

Styg

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Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2015, 02:28:31 PM »
Yeah... I might have to implement some diminishing returns there. Being completely immune to mechanical damage sounds a bit too op. :)

Greep

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Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2015, 02:31:52 PM »
Well, it was actually possible without supersteel by using tungsten, but not possible to get both energy and mechanical until now.  Certainly not immune to w2c, which I've only seen dreads use.

hilf

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Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2015, 05:38:02 PM »
Yeah... I might have to implement some diminishing returns there. Being completely immune to mechanical damage sounds a bit too op. :)

This is outright broken. While changing it keep in mind that fast melee weapons and xbows increase mechanical DR by 25% so even 80% DR is enough to negate all of their damage. Well, i didn't actually tested it but this is what description suggests.
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epeli

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Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2015, 08:32:25 PM »
Yeah... I might have to implement some diminishing returns there. Being completely immune to mechanical damage sounds a bit too op. :)

It has been possible to get >100% mechanical DR for the longest time. It's often been mentioned in forums, I thought you knew of it. :o

This is outright broken. While changing it keep in mind that fast melee weapons and xbows increase mechanical DR by 25% so even 80% DR is enough to negate all of their damage. Well, i didn't actually tested it but this is what description suggests.

Let's talk about the other aspect... enemy resistance. There aren't any completely immune enemies (after all, generated armor pales in comparison with high quality crafted stuff), but encountering 93-95% resistance is fairly common when your weapons incur 125% DR.

Poison bolts are the only reasonable way to kill heavily armored organics with xbows.
Dreads? Impossible, your weapon would break before they do.

It's not a huge problem for fast melee since shock melee weapon damage scales with quality, their DPS is much higher (or at least used to be!), and finally they have an alternative tied to the same skill.


But crossbows? They really have become the weakest weapon class over time. Last time they got love was back in 0.1.5.0.

Some things to consider about their role:
- with the new special bullets and chemical/energy weapons, they lose to guns in versatility (which was supposed to be the key point of crossbows)
- yet they deal much weaker mechanical damage (W2C -65% res vs incurred +25% res)
- AND have moving/melee penalties similar to assault rifles
+ low impact speed for shield penetration is great on paper...
- ...but ends up being a gimmick with little real benefit. Anyone can use EMP grenades and the crossbowski often has access to EMP traps as well.

The way things currently are, mechanical damage tends to always be the main component in crossbow damage, despite its limitations. If you encounter something with more than 66% base mech res, it's either poison bolts or skip the fight.
It might be a good idea to make special bolt secondary damage scale with crossbow skill or otherwise tweak them. Pretty much all other options outperform them in one or more ways:
- acid bolts are kind of crap (compare with acid pistols or acid bullets)
- tranq bolts are kind of crap (compare with cryo pistols, cryostasis, mental breakdown or high ql pneumatic strike)
- shock bolts are kind of crap (compare with electroshock pistols, shock bullets or electrokinesis)
- incendiary bolts are kind of crap (compare with incendiary pistols, incendiary bullets or pyrokinetic stream)
- all poison bolts are kind of crap (compare with poisoned throwing knives)

PS. Styg, you promised explosive bolts years ago! And now you've got the mechanics for them in explosive bullets. ;)
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 02:08:24 AM by epeli »
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Greep

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Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2015, 10:20:44 PM »
Well, I think the crossbow is cool as a niche weapon rather than a main weapon, although it should be put under subterfuge if that is the case so as not to confuse newbies.  But I suppose it sucks even at that xD 

Right now without feats to improve special bolt damage it's kind of like a pistol build without any feats or dexterity lol.  It'd be cool if you could craft supersteel bolts that ignore all DR/DT altogether, tichrome bolts that ignore half, and have special bolt damage scale with xbows.

As for DR, I have played cans for the majority of my characters, so the 80 resistance cap implied above is a bit overkill: That would make them worthless all the way until you get supersteel.  There's kind of bad sides to consider either a cap or diminishing returns so it seems like a choose your poison thing: a cap would make high crafting skills much less useful, diminishing returns would make one forced to use fully supersteel for the higher qualities (which might suggest supersteel should be given in 80-130 rather than 70-160).  I guess you could do both?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 11:10:23 PM by Greep »

epeli

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Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
« Reply #43 on: April 02, 2015, 11:25:25 PM »
Crossbows are supposed to be a main weapon. They've just been, er, left unattended for a while. There was a time when melee was worse off. :)

They're behind others but not useless; they're good enough to get you through the game and they still have some aspects where they excel. It's just that the development of other offensive skills has slowly surpassed xbows' designed strengths, so they seem lackluster compared to other weapons even with the new feats.

The idea with slow impact speed weapons incurring extra resistance is that they cannot penetrate armor well, but on the other hand they pass through shields easily. I don't think that's going to change. Also worth noting that crossbows penetrate bulletproof vests better than firearms.


As far as armor goes, I'm not sure how Styg wants the system to play out.
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hilf

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Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2015, 05:26:34 AM »
- acid bolts are kind of crap (compare with acid pistols or acid bullets)
- tranq bolts are kind of crap (compare with cryo pistols, cryostasis, mental breakdown or high ql pneumatic strike)
- shock bolts are kind of crap (compare with electroshock pistols, shock bullets or electrokinesis)
- incendiary bolts are kind of crap (compare with incendiary pistols, incendiary bullets or pyrokinetic stream)
- all poison bolts are kind of crap (compare with poisoned throwing knives)
PS. Styg, you promised explosive bolts years ago! And now you've got the mechanics for them in explosive bullets. ;)

What?!

Are guns supposed to completely replace xbows?
I don't have much problem with chemical pistols as they needed some more love, but those bullets ...
I bet there are cryo bullets as well.
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