Author Topic: Some thing that could be slightly changed, possible spoilers inside  (Read 5533 times)

Elhazzared

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I've tried playing the game again, probably won't be going much further in as the carry weight and inabillity to sell even minimal quantities of stuff really kills the game for me but I've noticed a few things that might need to be addressed.

The first is newton's quest. Azuridaes are a bit too tough an opponent to fight so early on. While most characters can take them on with reasonable ease so long as they don't get close to eachother, if you aim for a character that fights unarmed or possibly with combat gloves, then this becomes an unnecessarely tough fight. I had to just waste a bunch of grenades because unnarmed combat was not possible and throwing daggers were laughable... In fact, I think throwing dagger's damage is pretty laughable in general, it's a nice addition but I think the damage output of them should be slightly increased.

The second has to do with stealth and it's nothing new. It happened before and it still happens. Some enemies (especially the dangerous ones) seem to just instantly detect you when you are in stealth. In this specific case I was at the GMS mission, when south of the GMS cause I know there are the lunatic bandits there, a tough fight before but still doable. I have maxed stealth, even if only agillity 5.  I get close to the dog and he doesn't detects, me bar starts going up but as soon as I am within range of any of the lunatics they instantly detect me for no reason. I am way too far for the bar to even go up on any other enemies, at the point where the eye is green but at a going down rate, however for them, as soon as it's close enough for the eye to show, it immediatly goes red and starts combat... This happened before, it also happened a lot of time with mutants (and the weird thing is that sometimes it happened sometimes it didn't, there was neither ryhm nor reason to it)... It becomes hard to relly when stealth when it doesn't works half the time for no apparent reason.

LightningMonk

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Re: Some thing that could be slightly changed, possible spoilers inside
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2014, 04:30:54 am »
Azuridaes are fairly threatening early on in the game to unarmed characters, especially on that quest. Even if you net them, their mechanical resistance nearly nullifies most of your attacks. You actually have to let them use psionics just so you can do enough damage after they expose their brains. Forget it if there is more than one.

Elhazzared

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Re: Some thing that could be slightly changed, possible spoilers inside
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2014, 05:44:47 am »
Precisely my point with the azuridae. As for the throwing knifes, I was on a pure unarmed/throwing character the skill was maxed, damage was 0 without brain exposed, around 7 with brain exposed. Unarmed melee is 0 without the brain exposed, with the brain exposed it swung between 1 and 5 per punch (using leather gloves) If not for the number of attacks which would every once in a while get me a critical, it would be next to impossible to kill them and if you face more than one that's GG... I don't feel the quest is badly designed for any other fighting type, but it's badly designed for those specific forms of combat. I think the smaller variant of the azuriade here would have been better for the sake having unarmed melee be effective.

On another point on the throwing knives. With 10 dex and 15 points in throwing (straight out of the character creation) you cannot kill a rathound with 3 throwing knives, considering the cost per throwing knive and the damage i'd say it's pityful. The idea is good but the damage right now is laughable to say the least. They either need a serious damage buff or an AP reduction cost as well as a much lower price.

I don't remember what my stealth was at but it was agi 5 with maxed skill for my level which was 6. No bonus on equipment as neither my starting equipment nor drops granted me extra stealth and I'm too greedy to waste a ton of credit in an armor piece which has only a stealth advantage over mine but no real bonus to my defense.

Either way if this is not a bug it's pretty awefully implemented. You should always have a way of knowing whether the enemy will easily spot you or not. Worst case scenario is a 2 second timer to get detected. Meaning the eye changes state each second... However I do fully belive it's a bug because this happened to me in previous versions of the game when I had completed the available content at the time. For example the mutants in depot A. The green acid spiting bastards. Most of the times they would auto detect me and I was supposedly high enough level for that are having finished already all other quests except 2 side quests. Some times however they wouldn't detect me and the timer would go down at the normal rate of the other mobs wandering around like the acid dogs... In fact depot A was more of a per zone basis. If one mutant in that zone auto detects you, then all the others do too, if one doesn't, then none do. Letting the depot A reset would randomise the areas in which you were auto detected and not... If this was not but then I dunno what it was because I'm pretty sure all mutants are of the same level, bar 1 level difference tops between the inner and outer zones at most... As for the lunatics. They always auto detect. As far as I played in the earlier versions it didn't mattered your level, you are auto detected and that's the end of it. Even if you were level 16 agi 5 but otherwise maxed stealth skill. Now I don't know if they are still just like they used to be, but the fact is I got there, I was instantly detected... There should be no instant detection and the situations where auto detection always applies should be checked just as I reported it too back then.

It isn't so much that you die because you were detected and were not able to start the combat in your own terms. It is a case of rendering the one and only form of defense of some characters completly useless that annoys me.

LightningMonk

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Re: Some thing that could be slightly changed, possible spoilers inside
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2014, 06:10:30 am »
I've never experienced being autodetected while in stealth like you have at any point in the game so I'm not even sure what's causing your issues. :/
« Last Edit: December 27, 2014, 06:12:23 am by LightningMonk »

Eliasfrost

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Re: Some thing that could be slightly changed, possible spoilers inside
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2014, 11:47:40 am »
Interesting, I play almost exclusively stealth characters in Underrail and I've never encountered this problem (except Tanner, like Epeli pointed out). If you invest 100% in stealth than this is not a problem, do you have an idea of how much stealth and detection you have? It might be that your character just isn't up to snuff.

As for defense, I've never felt that my characters were cheated by the mechanics due to what kind of defensive strategy I use. Sure, if I tank all the damage then it's a problem but that not the fault of the game, that's me lacking tactics and strategy. As long as you find ways to avoid damage rather than reducing it, then low defense characters work just fine.

Elhazzared

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Re: Some thing that could be slightly changed, possible spoilers inside
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2014, 04:41:52 pm »
Good point, I was reflecting too much on my own limited experience. And I often play low con/will + high int characters, which makes psibugs' neural overload really scary... it's almost mandatory to keep them from using it.

Indeed, their mechanical threshold will definitely be a problem for melee characters who don't have the str to use off-build sledgehammers, but I find str useful for melee dexxers, or maybe I'm just used to str being a necessity for them. :P But is it really that bad with (metal) gloves and heavy punches?

The mushroom cove base also has some nice spots where you can lure them to a corner or abuse doors, sometimes getting them to reveal their brain almost right next to you before realizing they don't have enough AP left to attack. You'll never have to fight more than one at a time unless you chase them across the base. Instead, let them come to you whenever possible.


On stealth:
The only situation where instant detection applies is when you're trying to cheese your way past too high level mobs, and I bet that's intended. I did manage to trigger instant detection against the lvl10 lunatics with a freshly-created lvl1 character with only 37 stealth, no big surprise there. But I can't think of any other way to trigger it. The stealth requirements don't seem to be high, but I can't test it on very low (<5) level characters without taking the effort to edit some characters.

Here's a random lowbie wearing metal armor, standing almost at their faces, in a brightly lit spot, and still not detected. Not even at orange. lololol.


It is a case of rendering the one and only form of defense of some characters completly useless
Now THAT is absolute fucking bullshit. >:(

First, stealth works brilliantly if you specialize in it (ie. try to have it as your "only defense"), which you adamantly have refused to do so far. Whatever you say has no relevance until you actually try it.
Second, it will never be anyone's only defense. Speccing into stealth means you have powerful synergies for dodge/evasion and high MPs. Not to mention even leather armors have resistances, even if they are the lowest. In all honesty, CC is the main defense (defense being any method to reduce incoming damage) for all builds.

Well my strenght was 3 because I wanted a quick punching, very high agility and dexterity and depend on dodging + stealth. I know that higher strenght gives me more damage but really, if I want to benefict from strenght then I'd go for sledgehammers. As for the metal gloves, haven't tried them but I don't want them as they have a much higher AP cost, the only reason I want leather gloves is only because I know you always need gloves, pure unarmed doesn't works, especially when you meet robots. Heavy punch, I don't remember if it has a strenght requirement or not but 180% damage for 200% PA cost... Highly innefficient use of AP in my opinion, 2 punches will deal more damage for the same amount of AP (ok maybe not with damage reductions but more punch more crit possibillities anyway).

Yes you never have to fight more than one if you fight them smartly but the point still remains that for unarmed characters they ar much of a challenge alone and if they are not alone you can't even engage.

I tried to reproduce the stealth thing. I was actually wrong on the level, I'm level 4 actually but with 43 stealth, apparently I have +11 stealth on my armor. I had already cleared part of GMS (but not leveled up because right now gaining levels is a pain in the rear, I think that classic mode right now might need an experience buff cause killing mobs nearly give you no XP at all, at least I can't seem to level by killing stuff like I used to, the vast majority of XP I get comes from completing the quests, not sure if it's intended to stiffle leveling this much or just an oversight of the classic system).

Anyway, I wasn't able to reproduce the problem this time. I entered the place and I was able to sneak somewhat closer to them. How you can get so close to them on 44 stealth I have no clue when with 43 getting closer to even the dogs gets me on orange very quickly, but the lunatics this time weren't going auto red immediatly. I remember the past atempt the dog was still barely on yellow and they turned immediatly red, they didn't went through any other colour stages and this is the same character with the same equipment at the same level... I can only assume that this is indeed a bug, but doesn't hits every time. As my luck would have it, I couldn't manage to reproduce it when I was activly trying to get you screenshots.

You do are right, CC is the primary form of defense of my character to be honest. But my CC will only get to work in the first place if I dictate the rules of engagement. This means I have to get into the right position before I iniciate combat! I must be close enough to use my psi abillities. I must be in a place or at least the enemy has to be in a place where I can easily CC a few in a round... Stealth plays a major role in it and it's incredibly hard if not impossible to be able to use my CC if my stealth isn't allowing me to dictate the rules of engagement.

You aren't right that I don't focus on stealth. Agillity is 7, while not my primary stat it is already a good bonus. Of course my primary is will for the psi build. I also have made that character for punching right? He is either 8 or 9 agillity. Also don't forget that I don't divide my points. If I pick a skill I am always going to level that skill up to it's max on every level up, excepting for the biology in which I only care enough to get the doctor feat, then it goes into persuasion.

So while CC might be the form of defense all characters use, I don't think primary would be right, you cannot just says, CC and you die. In a heavy strenght character you can tank damage, that's your primary form of defense until your CC can start to kick in. In a character that uses stealth, stealth is your primary defense until you can get into a position where you are able to beggin the combat by laying down the CC first and foremost... I actually think it was a very poor idea (and that is just my opinion anyway) to make stealth remove all MP.  Sure there is interloper to kinda circunvent that, but that is for the people who have the liberty to take it. My character does not, the first skill it needs is marksman to get those stun bolts going at 25-AP and then the psi feats which I very much need start showing up so interloper is again left behind, much like the doctor feat. It's a great feat but really, most characters just do not have the liberty to pick it until much later in the game when nothing else of use for their build is being offered.

Of course the reason I stopped playing again are none of these problems. I was already getting pretty annoyed that I couldn't sell everything I find, heck, not even half! Then comes along GMS where I can't even do the middle and lower section without having to go back to unload my inventory, it was the straw that broke the camel's back. For me anyway.

captainmeow

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Re: Some thing that could be slightly changed, possible spoilers inside
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2014, 05:20:21 pm »
One thing to note RE: stealth and psi-beetles. If you reach the alert (orange) suspicion level with a single beetle all other beetles nearby jump straight to that suspicion level too.

Elhazzared

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Re: Some thing that could be slightly changed, possible spoilers inside
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2014, 05:53:41 pm »
I did noticed that yes and it's not just for them, it's for everyone as far as I've noticed. If one goes orange all go orange. I imagine it's because the suspicion is too high they start alerting eachother.

hilf

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Re: Some thing that could be slightly changed, possible spoilers inside
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2014, 08:42:09 am »
That auto detection could be caused by Motion Tracking Googles.
I had a character at lvl 17, agi 5 and maxed stealth. I equipped my 'combat gear' that gives me less stealth than my 'stealth gear' but easily enough to sneak up on targets of my lvl or lower. Then i approached lvl 15 bandits (train hijackers). I was  :o after getting auto detected by one of them. After I dealt with them, I discovered one of them had Motion Tracking Googles with +91% detection bonus ...

Elhazzared

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Re: Some thing that could be slightly changed, possible spoilers inside
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2014, 12:14:32 pm »
If that was the case then the lunatic bandits should have always auto detect me and they did once and after that they were not. That indicates a bug. Also the mutants in depot A (acid ones) are not an equipment user creature as far as I'm aware.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Some thing that could be slightly changed, possible spoilers inside
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2015, 11:22:07 pm »
Just now read this.
My last try at a character, admittedly a patch back, was a melee guy; I just happened to use a knife for the beetles.
Yes, they were tough, but I got by with just a few hypos, two I think. Move up, stab them, they move back, use psi once because they used their other points on moving, move up again, stab.
Working corners is also helpful so sometimes they waste extra movement.
Works the other way round if you still have your pistol, even with horrible skill.
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LightningMonk

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Re: Some thing that could be slightly changed, possible spoilers inside
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2015, 10:54:32 pm »
I think I actually witnessed this auto-detect bug El's been experiencing. It happens to me on the coil spider level (worst time for it to occur :() of the gauntlet and it happens to me on every reload. This was the only time it's occurred to me.

Fenix

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Re: Some thing that could be slightly changed, possible spoilers inside
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2015, 05:28:43 am »
Yeah, knife id the answer to psi-bitles.
Usual or jagged one, and occasional grenade\pistol work just fine.