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Messages - Elhazzared

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31
General / Re: Al Fabet
« on: February 21, 2016, 02:00:25 pm »
Well if you are entertained by doing something completly pointless then more power to you. To me the RPG part pretty much screams. If I'm not getting paid, I'm not risking my skin. If you even want to go there.

Exploring, yeah everyone will explore once, they'll see everything there is to see and after that expect them to not explore the whole map ever again. Same with quests. Maybe they'll do this or that one cause of one particularity or another, the majority of the side quests however will be ignored as there is no point in doing them...  You talk about yourself but the truth of the matter is that the majority of gamers won't do something that won't benefict them. In fact the majority of gamers won't care about the RP that much, they will do good and bad things depending on what yields the highest reward. Taht's their concept of morality in a game.

As for the Arcanum example, what stopped me from finishing it was actually bugs, bugs that at a certain point wouldn't let me progress. As for the time I spent farming. Was it wasted? I kill things, loot the bodies and containers and move on. It was pretty simple and quick, I never even have to move between location cause between me and the party there is more than enough carry weight. As for the game not having any challenge, no game has challenge once you learn it's ins and outs. I've certainly died several times in it but once I've learned it I never died. Same thing with underrail when it was in a playable state to me. I died a lot the first fw times, once I lerned it's ins and outs I never died anymore.

32
General / Re: Al Fabet
« on: February 21, 2016, 01:49:00 am »
Sadly there is no way around this. If I cannot loot everything and sell everything the game ceases to be fun for me and there is no point in playing a game that just isn't fun.

Out of those games you mentioned I played only arcanum, never got to finish it actually but I remember my favorite build was a 20 str, 20 dex fighter with full arcane stuff (just passing days and checking the witch XD) with a little bit of temporal magic for either doubling my movement or just stasis the strong enemies... As for my looting habits nothing was left behind, not even at the point that I had more money than I could count. That's what your party were good for, mules, I specificly told them not to fight.

I remember farming the portal near the starting area, my thrower builds actually managed to kill everything the portal spawned even early on when it was worth a load of XP. Other builds have to kill some and then close the gate before I died.

All in all it was a good game but if I had to put faults to it were the tecnology path was aweful cause it required more inventment than your level cap allowed and you hit level cap way too fast. I could get to max shortly after the isle of despair (or whatever that place where the dwarves were thrown it was was called).

But anyway, yes, it was fun and I could quite literally swipe everything... some of the bugs were extremely annoying though.

33
General / Re: Al Fabet
« on: February 21, 2016, 12:47:32 am »
I know that you can still make more than enough the money, that is not the point. the point is that it is a big chunk if not the only thing that there is of a reward which is just going into the trash bin.

To you it makes no difference if you have 20K charons or 200K, to me it makes all the difference. It doesn't matters if I can spend it or not. I fought for that loot, therefore I have the right to take and sell it. It is my reward, if I don't get my reward then it is a waste of time.

34
General / Re: Al Fabet
« on: February 20, 2016, 11:48:34 pm »
Since you can't take and sell all of the loot, your reward is denied. Sure, you could go in and do that quest, only to return and the merchants still not buy absolutly anything. Same thing with exploration. Sure you get the drops. But you don't get to make anything out of it.

35
General / Re: Al Fabet
« on: February 20, 2016, 11:24:40 pm »
No, you do things in the game to get better. Be it more money to buy more stuff, be it XP or any other kind of reward, anything that advances your character in some way or another.

To put into another terms, even if this doesn't exactly compares to PnP. You are not going to save a town from a bunch of trolls just to get a smile and a thanks. You better be getting paid for putting your life on a line.

This goes for any RPG, you do something in order to gain something it doesn't means that you won't do something just cause you can and felt like it of course. For example I always liked to exterminate the slavers in the den after I joined those anti-slaver group in the new california republic. But that is just a one thing I'd do because I could. I general I don't do anything if I don't get a reward. Even then wiping them out would yield me money in the form of loot and of course XP so it wasn't a total waste of time though the money for it is bad.

A player has to be rewarded for what he does or punished for what he does (it goes both ways of course since for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction). However a player's time should never be wasted.

36
General / Re: Al Fabet
« on: February 20, 2016, 10:03:40 pm »
Is it. Let's look at it this way. You do a quest to gain absolutly nothing. I look to do a quest to gain something. This counting that you had already done it in the past at least once to see the outcome so simply seeing the outcome of a quest is no longer the issue here.

In my case I am doing it to gain something thus I've not wasted my time.

In your case you are doing because you can do it but there is no reward (we'll assume you throw the reward away and that this is not underrail but a game with a proper economy system) for doing so thus you've wasted your time.

Now, you may be one rare case that considers that doing something for nothing in a game it's no waste of time and if that's what gets you going then more power to you, but doing quests for no reward is for the majority of people a waste of time. So is exploring and getting no rewards.


37
General / Re: Al Fabet
« on: February 20, 2016, 05:30:21 pm »
After seeying the wust once there is no reason to do a quest. Maybe you want to do it cause you like to waste time. it is your perogative, the majority of people will not bother to do something if they don't stand to gain anything from it.

38
General / Re: Al Fabet
« on: February 20, 2016, 10:44:03 am »
But you will be interested in the outcome of a quest once. After you've done it then what will it do for other playthroughs? If you know there is no point in doing a quest because you are not getting anything you want and you already know what the quest is all about and the dialogues. There is no point.

How do most games avoid making it pointless? The loot is worth it!

39
General / Re: Al Fabet
« on: February 20, 2016, 01:30:59 am »
it's not like I have the know how to edit this game otherwise I'd have done that a long time ago and made it playable.

You might not mind this but to me not being able to loot and sell everything makes this game completly unplayable to me. I tried doing it several times and I just can't, I just quit in disgust. it bother me beyond believe and sucks out all the fun.

40
General / Re: Al Fabet
« on: February 20, 2016, 12:35:20 am »
Player1 - In PnP (and I am playing 2 games of D&D, one of savage worlds, going to join soon anotehr of savage worlds and one of warhammer fantasy roleplay 2ed) you have something called a party through which you distribute the weight of items and can carry everything. More to the point, you get to a town, go to the proper store (and there always is a proper store) and sell everything and they will buy everything.

Let's add to that the fact that walking to a shop in PnP games is as simple as saying. I'll go look for the store, it doesn't takes you minutes walking around in real time.

Yes usually there is inventory management, but the weights are never like it is in UR. You can always carry a ton of weapons and armor and other random stuff. More to the point you can always sell everything to the merchants. Now let's add that most RPGs allow you to have companions to carry even more stuff and what you end up with in reality is a carry weight that it's there just cause. They know that those things are boring and do not benefict the game in any way so they include them and make them not a problem just so that the small group that likes hardcore realism shuts up.

Chimaera - It's not about how much money you can even make. It's about not feeling rewarded to do things. I know that I could go through the game, take only half a douzen guns to sll per place I go to and I'll still earn more money than I need. It's the fact that looting isn't fun that ruins the game for me. Even if I'm getting more money than I can spend I don't care, I still count that money as power and I still want it. I still want the reward for the things I do otherwise the gameplay just isn't fun.

41
General / Re: Al Fabet
« on: February 19, 2016, 06:22:33 pm »
It may be simplistic, but that's what's good about it. You do what you have to do and you are rewarded for it... Do you know why simple is often good? Because it works!

inventory management has a time and place. that is in rogue likes where you don't have the option to sell things. One exaple. Sword of the stars: the pit. There you have to manage your inventory because it is part of the difficulty.

In this game inventory management is not part of the dificulty, it's part of the tedium of having to sell stuff and waiting for merchants to reset. This is not immersive, this is just plain boring.

42
General / Re: Al Fabet
« on: February 19, 2016, 05:43:51 pm »
As I said, later on the problem will be reduced because there are more merchants available. I did say that. While I'm not there, I don't think it is rocket science to say that more merchants = selling more things. Not being able to carry everything. This is again not theory crafting. The further ahead you get on the game the bigger the maps tend to be. For example, I may not have gone to the junkyard since since the new system was implemented, but I know for example that the SGS is not a big place to loot and you can't take everything in there in one go because of sledgehammers. Similarly, I remember just how big depot A is. The amount of loot there is enormous and I doubt that Styg decided to cut it to half size or half loot (even then it would still be more loot than the SGS).

Similarly, it doesn't takes rocket science to say that as more merchants become vailable, you'll lose more time moving from merchant to merchant to sell things. You might increase how much you can sell by a bit, but then again you also increase the busy work of doing so without a good reason for it too.

So I am not wrong in what I'm saying.

You may like this system. It has more flaws than merits, in fact the only merit is being more realistic (even that is debatable). The previous method only had beneficts for the players. So it was less realistic, who cares if literaly everyone was having fun?! Still, just because you like the new system, it doesn't means that everything I said was incorrect.

43
General / Re: Al Fabet
« on: February 19, 2016, 05:15:24 pm »
How is it theory crafting? The 2 points I've essencially made will happen throughout the whole game. it's not theory, it's how it works. Merchants will never buy everything and carry weights will prevent you from carrying all the loot you find unless you stop to go sell it/stash it.

My feedback is very valid reguarding that issue. I never said no one will play this game like this. I said, because of this, I can't play the game and people like me won't.

As for whether the other system is better or no. For your theory crafting curiosity. The previous system had 0 complaints. Everyone liked it. The new system has people like me who can't even play the game, people who play it but would prefer the old system and people who like the new system better. So we went from a system everyone was happy with to a system that many people are unsatisfied with, a few to the point of not even playing the game because of how bad it is.

This is once again valid feedback.

If you mean about me saying that people will not explore and not do most sidequests. Well, you pretty much had epili saying that he didnt even bothered the first time, now he's doing more to see the areas. Odds are, once he's seen all there is to see, he's not going to bother doing it again... Again people don't like doing pointless things. It's natural human behavior. If it's pointless to go to an area where you know you won't be getting anything out of it, you won't go there, it's a waste of time.

The oddity system can make you explore a bit more. Sure, but that an horrible grindy way to get levels. You have to basicly waste time doing something for nothing more than gaining one more level. Note that I don't know whether this is necessary or not because I dunno how will the leveling process be in oddity... granted not so much on classic anymore too because there's been changes to XP since the time I practicly stopped playing (safe from the few atempts only qo quit quickly after).

Killing enemies as a way to grind XP is not an outdated system, it is still the system used by pretty much every RPG and do you know why? Because it works! We could debate about whether or not this is good however it is a subjective topic. What I can say is. I don't go out of my way to grind XP, I go out of my way to find loot and enemies I kill happen to award XP in the process. It's a win/win situation the way I see it.

You say enemies drop loot, in one way or another. My point remains the same, you can't carry all of it and from what you can carry, only a small part is able to be sold... Granted, further into the game there are more merchants available which means you can sell more but you already had to deal with the very bad early game and even then you still can't sell everything, not to mention that you have to waste a lot of time going between merchants just to sell.

Why should merchants buy everything? It's that quallity of life thingy. Yes, it's not very realistic but you know what? I makes the game that much more enjoyable for the majority of people. Sometimes realism has to take a step back towards build good game mechanics. I could argue from a realistic point of view that there is no such thing as certain things not being in demand because they always are, even if not in their original form, then at least in the components they have which can be used for a variety of things. However I don't like using realism as an escuse. this is a game and the simple matter of it is. Realism is not an escuse, a game needs good mechanics and if realism has to take a step back, then realism takes the step back.

Stashing to sell later in a town or just going and selling it immediatly is nearly the same thing. In fact it probably is better to sell immeditatly considering while you continue the quest the merchant might reset an be able to buy more.

Some items are worth keeping obviously but the majority of items you find are just vendor trash (do note that even a very good gun that is worse than the one you have is considered vendor trash). You can't sell everything and that is a cardinal sin because that was the whole reason you were exploring. Carry weight is merely a. Instead of stop doing what I'm doing to dump inventory, I just continue on and once I'm finished here I'll go sell. It's not realistic yes, but it's more immersive that you completly do what you are doing and then go sell rather than stoping several times to dump inventory.

You also make a good point that post junkyard players are swimming in money. This happened in the previous system too and was a complaint players had. However this new system makes it impossible to balance the issue. If you limit how much a player can sell then you must give it a good amount of cash for it while the previous system could simply adjust the value of items a little bit... Either way this should not be a reason to have bad game mechanics. Just because you still make more than enough you should highly limit a player in what he can take and what he can sell.

As a last point about money in RPGs, while it's always possible to balance it better, you always get a lot more than you need no matter the game. You're always straped for cash early on and midgame you have a lot. It this wrong? It's yet another subjective topic, my thoughts are that players should always be able to buy the next best thing when they move on to the next town with better items, however, some people will disagree.

44
General / Re: Al Fabet
« on: February 19, 2016, 04:02:43 pm »
The last time I tried to play the game it was 2 patches before release and I couldn't play with that system. How is it not valid critique if I can't play with it. If it makes my gameplay experience so bad that I can't even play for more than a few minutes ad quit in disgust? Bear in mind that before said system was put in place I would play the whole content available of the game and sing nothing but praises to the game!

As for the oddity system. I personally do not like it because it does not fits my playstyle. I don't really want to have to go around finding the scatered oddities to level up. I prefer the classic system. Do quests, kill things especially since the way I like to play the game is kill everything... I did not say it was a bad system, I just don't like it, it doesn't suits my playstyle but as long as it's an option over the normal XP system then I won't complain about it, but I certainly will not use it.

My problem is that first and foremost. Merchants have a limit of how many items they will buy and that they only buy specific types of items. There is nothing outdated about this because it is exactly how it it works. Merchants should buy everything so long as they have cash. I'd even go as far as saying they should have unlimited cash just so that players aren't forced to visit several just to sell everything, but hey, I'll be glad just for them buying everything, no limits! Second, carry weights. Realistic or not, all that it acomplishes is force the players to stop doign whatever they are doing to go sell stuff and thus break immersion (this assuming the merchants would actually buy everything). the carry eight would bother me less if some items were not as heavy as they are, again good examples are sledge hammers and metal armor, but also there are other things that are also quite heavy.

So you are wrong, there is absolutly nothing outdated about my problems with the game. Unless you are to tell me that merchants now buy everything you sell them and there are no carry weights anymore.

45
General / Re: Al Fabet
« on: February 19, 2016, 02:56:32 pm »
Player1 - I've hang around for a while, I guess for years because this game is potentialy the best RPG since fallout 2. If only the merchant system wasn't so incredibly bad! I've been here in the hopes that Styg would give us what he said he might do at some point which is, add the option between both merchant systems and carry weight limits.

Of course I haven't played the whole game with the current system! The current system is so bad that I can't even play it, I hate every second of playing it with this system so do you expect me to grit my teeth and play it to the end? What is the point? Games are for people to have fun, not for them to endure a bad time. That said, when the old system was in place where there was neither carry weight limits and merchants bought everything you sold them so long as they had money I finished the content the game had to offer twice with 2 different builds and then even tried to start a let's play series but alas it was never to be finished. As for oddity, I've never played on oddity by choice. My way of looking at it is, Oddity is a system that was made specificly for the players who wanted pacifist playthroughs. Who didn't just want to go everywhere killing everything just to gain the XP. I however like aggressive playthroughs, go everywhere, kill everything so I prefer classic where my XP comes from completing quests and killing things.

Yes you can find good loot and crafting components, if you're a crafter anyway. However there is no point to spend hours looking for a better piece of gear if all the bad ones can't be carried and sold because just a you can find better gear you can also BUY better gear... I know that closer to the end you will only want to craft cause anything you craft is better, not the issue here. The early game must be satisfying to play as well.

Being systematic is nice to say, but when you start the game you have nearly no sellers to sell loot to and you have to consider the pain that it is until you unlock all sellers as well. Also as you said, it is a chore to walk around to every merchant throughout the whole underrail just to be able to sell the majority of your stuff. And this beneficts the game in which way? Realism? Is a little bit of realism worth making the player waste that much time? Or perhaps should the game include such things known as quallity of life improvements as they so well named it on the current patch?

MichelBurge - That is good for carry weight, to actually make merchants work as they used it's not possible to do. Maybe you can hack money and throw stuff away but we ae entering the too much trouble to constantly do it not to mention it doesn't feels satisfying. The merchants aren't really buying, you are just pretending the game is doing what it's supposed to do. which as far as the carry weight works, not so much with merchants.

Chimera - Looting is the main mechanic of games like fallout and underrail and such RPGs. Loot = money and money = a stronger character. This creates the sense of improvement throughout the game alongside the leveling. Many players will still play this game with this system, but the truth is, given a choice between this system and the old I have no doubts the majority would prefer the old.

In any game the most important thing are it's mechanics. You can have a beautiful lore, interesting NPCs and so on. If the game mechanics are not good, the game isn't good. A game is an interactive experience and thus each player will create his own story based in his own interactions. However if the interactions are bad because the mechanics don't support it well enough, it just won't work.

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