Messages

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Development Log / Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13

« on: March 19, 2018, 10:53:03 am »

Then remove hostile triggering part of pickpocketing too.

Remove the hostility of stealing?  That's ridiculous.  If you do that you may as well remove all sense of ownership for everything in the game, which is also ridiculous but not worse than removing the inherent hostility of stealing - which is what pickpocketing is.  Stealing.  Unlike opening locks which aren't owned.

And no, you've again completely misunderstood what I'm saying, and cumulatively so, to boot.  You're intentionally ignoring the simple points i'm making, presumably because you so desperately want pickpocketing to be more simple a tool.  Your suggestions just don't make any sense in a game designed to be fun or internally consistent.  You would neuter a skill (pickpocketing) and make the entire game slower and more boring (increased delay in lock skills) just so...what? You wouldn't have to think about pickpocketing and it would just be an inventory for characters who bought into the skill?  Ridiculous.

By your suggestion, pickpocketing would no longer benefit from skill investment beyond threshold clearance.  That would have the advantage of making it more like other non-combat skills in the game, but it would also have the disadvantage of making it more like other non-combat skills in the game.  You would just have an NPC inventory to choose from, and a set value of what could be taken.  This deprives the player of agency by removing their ability to improve the amount of items stealable (the effect of the skill, and thus the effect of the build).  It also would put a fairly large burden on the devs to rebalance the inventory and/or pickpocketing threshold of every pickpocketable NPC.  No, it appears that what you want is to prevent players from being allowed to make good pickpockets, so that everyone who is a pickpocket is instead an utterly average one.  That's terrible design.

For first paragraph, no. By definition it is no longer a hostile action. I am not so sure what you are getting at. Item ownership? Then how come you can trigger hostility from them by punching them in the face and take all their stuff? Is that not bad design then, allowing player to loot everything from NPC? Pick pocket is *just* another way of giving player more choice to take everyone's stuff. Like other stealing skills and punching people in the face.
(And yes. I do trigger partial hostility from NPC by punching them in the face because I know those kills are consequence free. I assume you have not tried it before?)

Second paragraph: I could say the same to you. But you don't see me accusing you making game slower and unfun by giving pickpocket cooldown. You think that only pickpocket should have cooldown, I think we should bring back cooldown back for the locks and hacks. You said it yourself that skill need investment. I just think it is not enough for locks and hacks. And that neutering comment. HAHA, that is one way to look at it. Either you have misunderstood what I said or you think installing safety on the mechanic is neutring them. Like installing worker protection on the circular saw and reducing its capacity to cut user's limbs off counts as "Neutering". You could provide as how ability to trigger hostility from pickpocket is beneficial though. I doubt you can.

Third paragraph display that you really misunderstood what I said. I will try to keep it simple.
1. Keep the same pickpocket system.
2. Player will be unable to steal an item from NPC when transparent bar becomes red.
 

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Development Log / Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13

« on: March 19, 2018, 01:39:37 am »

Do you think people will care if Styg patched pickpocketing to remove this inherit hostility?(Just make it so you can't steal anymore if it will trigger hostility) I think what you are advocating is to nitpick on the situation that no pickpocket thieves wants to happen and use it to punish them for suspension system that does not exist. Or worse, punish players for the mandatory system that is "inherit hostility" which only serves to hinder pickpockets. No pickpocket wants to start their battle with AP spent and hands in someone's pocket.
How can you justify punishing(cooldown) players for punishment(inherit hostility/allowing users to trigger hostility via pickpocket) already given?

I feel like the language barrier is hurting us here. I wish I spoke...German, is it? But I don't, so thanks for doing this in English.  Alright, I'll try to be super clear.

Theses:
1) Pickpocketing is always a hostile action.  Proof: If an NPC will see you do it, they will try to stop you.
2) Hostile actions may require game response.  Proof: NPCs who were previously not hostile, become hostile, when player is noticed doing a hostile action.
3) Pickpocketing provides value in exchange for skill investment.  Proof: Items which can only be obtained by killing & looting are available without the consequences of killing.
4) Skills which provide value have costs, and should have them.  Proof: Hacking requires a special tool, plus consumable batteries; lockpicking requires consumable lockpicks.  Pickpocketing requires time.
5) Skills in UnderRail have success thresholds.  Proof: locks have difficulty rating.  Picking pockets can fail to begin if skill is too low.

Conclusions: Pickpocketing has a special cost of time that lockpicking and hacking do not have.  Pickpocketing and lockpicking have special costs of tools and consumables that pickpocketing does not have.  Pickpocketing is a more hostile action, overall, than hacking or lockpicking.  So it is not wise to hold pickpocketing to the same standard as lockpicking/hacking.  Suspicion is not a punishment to pickpockets - it is the essential limiting mechanic.  Suspicion is not a punishment but actually a reward mechanic for the skill because additional investment reduces suspicion per item.

Additional assumptions: Just because you are not caught, that does not mean your action was not hostile.  Hostility =/= combat although it may lead to it.

And to be clear, if you just can't pick the pocket any more, that in no way changes the inherent hostility of picking pockets.  It just makes it impossible to be caught, which would be removing consequences from skill use.  I have no idea if people would like that.

Then remove hostile triggering part of pickpocketing too. This makes pickpocket literally non hostile action. (you would not be able to pick pocket above your suspension limit)
I am sure many people wouldn't mind as they seldom used that particular function intentionally. That was the main argument of your case, yes? By design, unless you are cheating you would be unable to trigger hostility using pickpocket what so ever.
So 1. Pickpocket(after the proposed change) is by definition cannot be a hostile action. The game itself will make sure you cannot be caught doing it.
2. Therefore it never requires game response.

I think it is a better option. After all, if you want to go past the suspesion limit, you probably have to kill that guy. You would have much better chance of killing that guy under your terms - not in melee, unstealthed and AP spent on pickpocketing for example. 

Edit: and as for #4, I completely agree. Furthermore I think it is fair to being back cooldown for lockpicking and hacking since they have advantage of not being a hostile action. Those have much, much much greater variety and value of loot and extra contents only accessible through those skills. Why should it just be monetary investment? We should also make players invest time into them. I think it would be fair to make them even longer than before considering how much value those skills provide.

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Development Log / Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13

« on: March 18, 2018, 03:53:51 pm »

But let's get back to the main issue and agree to disagree. So, inherit hostility. That is the crux of the issue, yes?

So why do we not have a cooldown for looting(taking items in/out of) other people's property? If they can catch you do it, You get shot in the face. Therefore it is inherently hostile to them. I think you should support having cooldown for hostile looting, yes? (Or cooldown for all looting, if you prefer that)

Well, I don't think inherent hostility is the crux of the issue.  I believe the issue is, "why is pickpocketing treated differently than hacking or lockpicking".  I think inherent hostility is the reason why you can't apply the same standards to pickpocketing that you can to hack/lock.

My first post about this was that removing the cooldown on hack/lock was correct.  It was correct because the waiting period forced on the player by the game was undesirable, but that argument was only valid because in many - perhaps most - cases, the hack/lock action didn't produce any need for the game world to react.  The cooldown provides time for the game to respond to player action. 

You have a good point on making the game respond to player action. However, in most cases pickpocketing does not make the NPC react to your actions. If you do - presumably by aggroing them - you don't need to use pickpocket. You punch them and take their stuff which is much more efficient.(and you probably can if you invested in useful skills instead of pick pocketing)

This leads me to conclude that pickpocketing is about looting limited items while not actually making game react to you. It is about taking loot out of npc pocket box without killing all of them. A skill that requires significant amount of investment and not even essential for combat or oddities. Pickpocketing within suspension limit is just suspension, not a hostility therefore it should be treated like opening a box.

Do you think people will care if Styg patched pickpocketing to remove this inherit hostility?(Just make it so you can't steal anymore if it will trigger hostility) I think what you are advocating is to nitpick on the situation that no pickpocket thieves wants to happen and use it to punish them for suspension system that does not exist. Or worse, punish players for the mandatory system that is "inherit hostility" which only serves to hinder pickpockets. No pickpocket wants to start their battle with AP spent and hands in someone's pocket.
How can you justify punishing(cooldown) players for punishment(inherit hostility/allowing users to trigger hostility via pickpocket) already given?

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Development Log / Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13

« on: March 18, 2018, 01:02:18 pm »

<laugh>  No.  Your definition is ridiculous.  By that tortured logic, if nobody sees you commit murder, it's not really murder because nobody is mad at you for it.

When you pickpocket, you build up suspicion.  Suspicion is the threshold where you can safely pick pockets, but even somewhere relatively safe and friendly like SGS, if you are caught pickpocketing (by exceeding the suspicion threshold), you're getting shot in the face.  Out in the wilderness of the UnderRail tunnels, you even need to be stealthed to get that far.  If your pickpocketing is generating suspicion, then it's hostile pickpocketing, since once you're caught, the NPC will try to make you stop.

Now, I'm certainly no Pickpocketing expert.  Maybe there are places where you can pick pockets, exceed the suspicion threshold, and nobody cares.  THAT - and only that - would be non-hostile pickpocketing because the target genuinely doesn't care that you've taken something from them.  So in those cases, you'd be doing non-hostile pickpocketing.  If such cases exist.

So pickpocketing is different than a locked neutral chest in the middle of the city because people can "catch" you opening the chest and they don't care, but if they catch you stealing from them, they do.  One is inherently hostile to them, the other not.  And because there are many (perhaps even a majority - I haven't counted but almost none of the locks outside population centers are owned, and many within are still not owned) situations where a lock is non-aggro-generating, but few situations where pickpocketing is non-aggro-generating, the skills and use cases are different enough that applying the same standard is disingenuous.

Tortured logic that is defined in the zone control itself?
http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Zone_Control

But let's get back to the main issue and agree to disagree. So, inherit hostility. That is the crux of the issue, yes?

So why do we not have a cooldown for looting(taking items in/out of) other people's property? If they can catch you do it, You get shot in the face. Therefore it is inherently hostile to them. I think you should support having cooldown for hostile looting, yes? (Or cooldown for all looting, if you prefer that)

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Development Log / Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13

« on: March 18, 2018, 08:26:12 am »

All those activities trigger hostilities from other faction when get caught. Why should we have cooldown removed from those?

As a side effect of making the right choice about all non-hostility-provoking hacking and lockpicking.  There are *a lot* of locks to crack and when you're exploring the world it's often the case you get several very close to each other.  In a perfect world, maybe you'd get a debuff after doing potentially hostility-provoking lockpicking/hacking/pickpocketing that would prevent you from doing those things again to give the game time to "catch up" and make allowances for what you've done.  But there is no non-hostile pickpocketing, right?  Everyone hates it.  There's a lot of non-hostile lock cracking.  So that's the reasonable cause, I think.

All pickpocketing that does not make you directly hostile to the NPC is non-hostile pickpocketing.

There are lots of non-hostile pickpocketing.

Your argument is invalid.

If you disagree, please provide reason *why* (sensible non NPC aggro) pickpocketing is any different than a neutral locked chest in the middle of the city.

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Development Log / Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13

« on: March 18, 2018, 02:35:44 am »

not having to wait to pickpocket sounds against what pickpocketing is like, one would potentially draw too much attention by repeatedly performing the act, a cooldown makes sense to re-establish your nonchalance before going in for another grab

So is picking locks and hacking, but I don't see people complaining about those.

no, lockpicking and hacking involve interacting with inanimate objects, pickpocketing is with a conscious being

All those activities trigger hostilities from other faction when get caught. Why should we have cooldown removed from those?

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Development Log / Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13

« on: March 17, 2018, 08:58:57 am »

not having to wait to pickpocket sounds against what pickpocketing is like, one would potentially draw too much attention by repeatedly performing the act, a cooldown makes sense to re-establish your nonchalance before going in for another grab

So is picking locks and hacking, but I don't see people complaining about those.

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General / Re: [SPOILER] list of all random encounters

« on: March 06, 2018, 01:04:09 am »

Begger with a hand behind his back, core city drop zone north of the Coretech warehouse(I think.)

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Development Log / Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13

« on: March 03, 2018, 06:11:19 am »

And now that we have removed cooldown for the hacking and lockpicking, could we remove the cooldown from the last crime - pick pocketing?

But how would that work tho?

Um, Make it so you no longer have to wait for 5 seconds to pick pocket 2nd person after you finish pick pocketing 1st person?

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General / Re: Protectorate and Psionics

« on: March 03, 2018, 06:02:12 am »

In fact it's a bit strange how there isn't more anti-psi tech in Underrail (anti-psi field generator, psychic nullifier collar/straight jacket, mind reading resistant/immune helmet, etc).

I'm actually more surprise how there isn't any cyborg and/or biological augmentation since BioCorp already seems to done tons of research on them.

Well, I think to restraint a psi users we can use a very simple method: Booze him up 24/7.
Considering cost of military hardware(cost of home security is not a joke) I think it is much better investment to keep the psionics boozed up rather than buying up expensive machines to keep them down.

As for cybernetic argumentation, we have already seen plenty of them. That one guy had a cybernetic eye. One of oddities you can find is a cybernetic part.
And as a rumor, I've heard that future characters from north underrail may have cybernetics.

BUT, as a solder or scavenger I think large, combat cybernetics are not very effective. From what I have seen, every item you have can and will break with enough uses. Having one mechanical limb in this world must be costly and require heavy, constant maintenance.

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General / Re: Protectorate and Psionics

« on: March 03, 2018, 03:10:09 am »

Quiet possibly because they value physical strength and because pills physically weaken you?

Or maybe there is a lore reason for it? (like South being a primary psionic research center for biocorp, which does seems to be true from the hollowed ground research notes)

Edit even more:
ON SECOND THOUGHT, Most legitimate military organization in Underrail does not utilize psionics. Foundry guards? Primary 3 core city factions? Protectorates? Even SGS guards.

Perhaps the rate of psionics turning into lunatics were greater than we initially thought...

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Development Log / Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13

« on: March 03, 2018, 01:03:06 am »

And now that we have removed cooldown for the hacking and lockpicking, could we remove the cooldown from the last crime - pick pocketing?

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Development Log / Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13

« on: March 02, 2018, 12:38:27 am »

I am not allowed to say much, but some things do seem to be being tested at the moment.(as of 1.0.3.20)

I do not think we are close to being completion(then again, most of the expansion is not accessible), but I do see signs of progression.

Take that with loads of salt.

On the side note, I command load of work done on the existing game. Current patch have added, replaced or buffed dialogues.

P.S: while we are talking about new content, may I ask why core city does not have its own internal map?
Equal sized city like foundry have its own map.

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Bugs / Re: [1.0.3.20] Protectorate weapon possession hostility, Fort Apogee

« on: February 28, 2018, 12:28:44 am »

Thank you!

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Bugs / [1.0.3.20] Protectorate weapon possession hostility, Fort Apogee

« on: February 27, 2018, 01:40:08 am »

So, you are be able to carry weapons inside Fort Apogee after you got accepted.

Everywhere except the office of Fort Apogee. If you do have weapons in the office, they will try to kill you.

Any weapon BUT COMBAT GLOVES. Oh yes, you can use that.
They are also fine as long as weapon is in other hand.
But not grenades. If you have grenades in your pocket, you will be shot.

May I ask for some consistency here? What exactly can or can't I carry where in this fortress?

tl;dr weapon possession hostility in Fort Apogee seems to be a mess, especially in office.