Underrail Forum
Underrail => Development Log => Topic started by: Styg on January 16, 2014, 11:15:46 am
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Hey guys, the new version has been released. It's available now on Steam, soon to be available on Desura, GamersGate and Groupees. For a preview of what's new you can check out this and past four dev logs.
(http://www.underrail.com/images/DevLog/RailCrossing2.jpg)
(http://www.underrail.com/images/DevLog/RailCrossing3.jpg)
(http://www.underrail.com/images/DevLog/RailCrossing4.jpg)
(http://www.underrail.com/images/DevLog/RailCrossingShop.jpg)
You will now be able to travel a bit through Lower Underrail, either on foot or by train, and explore the town of Rail Crossing and the surrounding areas and face new types of enemies. The main story of the game starts in earnest with this patch, but I'm not going to spoil anything regarding that in this log :).
I also did a lot of polishing of existing game mechanics and added some new ones, as well as did a fair amount of economical re-balancing. After these couple days of internal testing I feel quite content where we're at now in that regard and while there surely be some more tweaking done in the future, I don't expect to do any major work on the existing mechanics in the future. With the future patches we will mostly be focusing on adding more content at a faster rate, which will as always include more areas, quests, enemies, items, feats, etc.
Anyway, have fun guys and let us know what you thought of the changes and the new stuff. Cheers.
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Fantastic!
Just a quick feedback, weight limit seems a bit excessive especially since some items and components are pretty heavy and some can stack to 99 giving massive burden (like animal parts) and if we add armor and weapons... we could also use sort by weight option to quickly find heavy items.
Also characters should be able to move pathetically slow despite weight, I just don't want to leave stuff lying around since I'll probably forget about it, I prefer leaving them in some container. 8)
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-Holy sound-
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After playing the new version for a couple of hours I think I have a good grasp on the new economy changes and I have a few thoughts on it and I'd like to share my experience with the new system.
Specifically about stocking, I thought it was a pretty interesting concept when I heard about it first. But as I play the game I've come to the conclusion that I really don't like it at all. Here's why and sorry if it sounds frank but I want to be as honest about it as possible:
Selling stuff as an activity is normally one of the worst parts of any RPGs with massive amounts of loot and Underrail was no different, selling stuff just isn't very engaging and really never have been but when you add to it that you don't just need to catch the guy with enough money and ability to buy it from you, you also need to make sure that you can sell enough of a certain item to the guy. This makes you run around every merchant in every town just to sell your stuff and it's such a tedium that you rather not sell anything at all.
I bascially stopped selling items after the first time in Junkyard because it took me a mere 20+ minutes to empty my inventory. So now when I see loot I don't pick it up because I know that the downside of trying to sell the stuff outweigh the pleasure of earning that extra money by far. This has also lead me to being rather weak because I have no money to spend on medical equipment or ammo. And it's really not fun, it's not challenging and it doesn't force me to think about what I pick up because the game makes sure that I don't pick anything up at all, I'm sure this is not really the intent of the change but it really up'd the tedium to eleven.
Other than that, I think it's some great changes, I've not played enough to really get into the new XP system but right now it's a bit odd but all right.
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@Eliasfrost What I would suggest for you is to only pick up firearms (preferably more expensive ones). You can always sell those to Lucas in SGS or Len in Junkyard (it's a static demand) and since now you generally find items in better condition than before and the merchant modifier has been lowered significantly (from 350% to 200% base), you should be able to finance yourself that way fairly effectively.
Other than that, I think it's some great changes, I've not played enough to really get into the new XP system but right now it's a bit odd but all right.
I see what you did there. ;)
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Styg so far the game feels better.
I like how barter works now. The doctor no longer accepts firearms as a way of payment. It makes sense and makes the game more immersive since its more believable.
About the weight system i don't have much opinion yet. I am playing a 9 Str character so i still am able to pick every item i want.
I am going to make a 3 Str char and see how hindered i feel.
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@Styg, I will try that, thanks for the suggestion. :)
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That's great!
By the way what's about level limit? Still maximum is 20 level?
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That's great!
By the way what's about level limit? Still maximum is 20 level?
Yep.
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Okay... :'(
Thanks for update! I'm very happy now! :D
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Probably the only one who didn't tried this update yet but the weight system and the merchant changes quite frankly make me not even want to touch it. The reason for this is that if i don't pick every items it will leave a very sour taste in my mouth and I'll just end up disliking the game based on the fact that I cannot take all the items because eitehr I don't have the strenght to carry or the boredom it will be to actually sell everything. It's not that I don'tunderstand what you're trying to do Styg, but at the end of the day I feel this does a lot more harm to the game that good.
It was said before that characters didn't needed lockpick and such in order to get every single item because there were ways to make up for the loss of the income in the forms of crafting and pick pocketing. I'd say that it is still a valid argument to make rather than give all of this restriction that everyone as a RPG player hates.
The reason I am actually unwilling to try this update is not just because I don't want to see how much impact it trully brings, but because I just know that it will get me tired of the game and just make me give up on it and change my opinion of a good game to just not worth my time... I do sincerely hope that this will be addressed in the future and this kind of restrictions removed cause quite frankly I liked this game a lot. No RPG since fallout 2 and arcanum ever got me this level of enjoyment and I'd really like to play this game again in the future.
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Hmm just started a new game with the oddity system. Right now i just finish the hopper quest, just before the GMS compound one. In the classic version i would be already level 4. But right now i am level 2 (1 more bar to level 3). So the experience gained is way lower for oddity (only part i have not explore is the mushroom cave where you need the agility to climb over the rocks (dunno if there is an oddity there)).
I do not really care how experience are gained but i will most probably play the one which is more rewarding for me in terms of leveling experience. Will play a bit more to know if i like the new system or not. Anyway, it is good that we have choice between the classic and oddity system.
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Hmm just started a new game with the oddity system. Right now i just finish the hopper quest, just before the GMS compound one. In the classic version i would be already level 4. But right now i am level 2 (1 more bar to level 3). So the experience gained is way lower for oddity (only part i have not explore is the mushroom cave where you need the agility to climb over the rocks (dunno if there is an oddity there)).
New system is highly rewarding if you do lot of exploring... that means using TAB button a lot because there are some interesting rocks! ;)
New areas added to the Lower Underrail (extending from base top level with station and rail tracks, was anything added to Deep Caverns? I did some blowing up of rocks but still found them empty) seems to have plenty of oddities and most enemies come individually with exception of one zone with bridge which has 3 psi bugs and even level 20 character should not just rush in, also lot of dead bodies so you get some free loot as well.
Just be careful since in few places you have rocks to blow up to pass and without TNT you might get yourself stuck with strong enemy behind your back.
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Deep Caverns aren't in the game yet. It's going to be a different high level set of areas with a new tileset.
The cave system around SGS and Junkyard will be expanded in the next content patch.
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Nice update!
Is there any chance we can go to and explore the surface. I'm really interested to so how bad the evironment is. But it is totally okay if it not going happen since I get the idea that this game wants to focus the life inside under ground railroad.
Keep up the good work, Styg.
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You gotta read what i have written. I have started a fresh game (never imported any character) and i am doing what i do with the classic system. I kill everything loot everything and explore all areas except for those limited by stats. And i am still level 2 (nearly 3) but with classic system i would be level 4 already after finishing the hopper quest (the one where you have to capture three cave hoppers). I am not talking about later in the game because i have not even started GMS compound quest. Its the early game that i am talking about.
This is from my experience of patch 1.09 with classic where i got to level 4 after the hopper quest but maybe in this patch 1.10 Styg has reduced the amount of experience gained. Maybe in later levels the oddity system would be faster/ equal to the classic system but early on the leveling feels really really slow.
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You gotta read what i have written. I have started a fresh game (never imported any character) and i am doing what i do with the classic system. I kill everything loot everything and explore all areas except for those limited by stats. And i am still level 2 (nearly 3) but with classic system i would be level 4 already after finishing the hopper quest (the one where you have to capture three cave hoppers). I am not talking about later in the game because i have not even started GMS compound quest. Its the early game that i am talking about.
This is from my experience of patch 1.09 with classic where i got to level 4 after the hopper quest but maybe in this patch 1.10 Styg has reduced the amount of experience gained. Maybe in later levels the oddity system would be faster/ equal to the classic system but early on the leveling feels really really slow.
I'm aware that there's a bit of a gap here. From my experience it is possible to be about 3.5 level when you enter GMS with the new system, but it's not the most obvious road. So I might add a few oddities in between to make sure players are not underlevelled when accessing that area.
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Just trying the new version with a new build (melee only character) with the new experience style system, it does make you think more about picking your battles as the only thing you'll be doing is spending the durability on your armour although with the potential rewards of getting better items like leather to make better armour or even a heart to produce some sort of item using crafting it really makes you think that much more.
I really love the fact you've given the player a choice in terms of experience type and difficulty, it shows you are listening to the fans of the game and allowing them to make the choice rather than forcing it upon them.
Keep up the good work, how have you settled into your new office?
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Just trying the new version with a new build (melee only character) with the new experience style system, it does make you think more about picking your battles as the only thing you'll be doing is spending the durability on your armour although with the potential rewards of getting better items like leather to make better armour or even a heart to produce some sort of item using crafting it really makes you think that much more.
I really love the fact you've given the player a choice in terms of experience type and difficulty, it shows you are listening to the fans of the game and allowing them to make the choice rather than forcing it upon them.
Keep up the good work, how have you settled into your new office?
Glad that you're enjoying the game. We settled well, thanks. :)
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So yeah i played a bit more. I just arrived at the junkyard and i am level 6 (1 more bar to level 7). Everything seems fine except the early quest where i said it feels really really slow to level (i.e until hopper quest). But from GMS onwards its awesome.
Hmm one quest is a bit weird the one where you need to find the lucky knife. There is no point in what so ever to return the knife. I do not know whats the reward in classic but in oddity better just take it for yourself and equip it. Its awesome good for me because i rarely use weapons and this knife gives 2 critical defence and has huge critical chance for those who want to use it.
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Beautiful
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From the Underrail wiki i found out that items have relative quality : grey- low, white - normal, green - hight , purple - rarity and orange - artifact.
After the last update i found a rarity item - a Dragunov sniper rifle.Does anyone know other rarity or artifact ones?
soon i'll post a screenshoot with the wepon's details.
8)
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I found another one, but i don't know what to create with it.any sugestions?
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I found another one, but i don't know what to create with it.any sugestions?
High level grenades.
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Initial thoughts. I like the oddity system. No longer is the path to success (where success = having maximum expiriance and items) to kill everything that moves. But sometimes I want to fight. Sometimes I like killing everything that moves. And it would be nice to get a little more than a bunch of items that I cant sell for the effort. What is that little more? maybe 1 kill = 1 oddity point. Maybe you recode the shop system, so there is more demand for looted items when you go pillaging. (shops start looking for more items you pick up off of bodies or somthing) Maybe you use your all knowing knowledge to come up with something exciting. New, but old. Or old but in a newish way. Kinda like this game you have created.
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You can find oddities in remains also i.e. all gang members carry gang patch but its worth for single time only otherwise it would be nice exploit with quest which allows you to wipe out Scrappers almost with no risk.
Many animals also leave one at random.
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I think it would be nice to have a sort of collection where you can view all the oddities that you have uncovered, they have interesting lore attached to them after all. Taking a look at all of the special stuff you've found also feels good. :)
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I think it would be nice to have a sort of collection where you can view all the oddities that you have uncovered, they have interesting lore attached to them after all. Taking a look at all of the special stuff you've found also feels good. :)
+1 to this.
Some are really funny too, like that book of the past about the future or something like that.
I cant recall correctly because there isn't a way to check what curiosities oddities have you
studied so far. >:(
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This is the first alpha I've played since 0.1.6.0 and I must say its starting to get better. I played through the vast majority of this version and I want to break it down for you and give you the details on what my impressions are and any issues that I think could be addressed to make the game even better. I always try to take an unbiased approach to this and focus on what would make the game better for the majority and thus gain the game more popularity and sales. I've been behind this project since the beginning and am glad someone decided to make a game that I think has the potential to be even better than Fallout 1/2 and in some ways it already is.
So anyway I played on normal difficulty and classic exp. gain. In all honesty I personally don't care for the idea of the oddity system but I can see how you would extend to more players this way and think it was a good idea and having an option to choose is very player friendly. Nice work here. The normal difficulty seemed rough at times and had to reload many times in several situations. The difficulty is a lot more balanced than it was in the earlier versions. I still think it could use a little tweaking mostly in enemy HP. They seem to have a ton of it and the fact that most human enemies use stimpaks raises that even more. I suggest cutting HP down on all enemies with the exception of rathounds by a slight amount. Maybe 5-10%. It's not very fun to have to reload several times for one battle even with the best gear up to that point because it takes 3-5 rounds to kill one enemy and most of the outcome is seemingly based on the luck of the dice roll more so than tactics and gear. I understand I could try easy mode and it would avoid that and during my next playthrough I probably will to see the difference. Overall definitely better but could use some tweaking (very small) I think to make it more balanced in the players favor.
Amount of gained skill points, perks, and stats per level seems pretty good now. It went too much in the players favor last time but now it makes it seem like you have to really think about what perk you're going to pick and where your skill points are going to go. Very nice improvement here. I would suggest and I think I read this somewhere to make the max level cap at 30-40 instead of 20. Also suggest more perks, psionics, weapons, armor, and items which I assume will be added to eventually. I can try to help you come up with some if you want and have a few in mind that I think would fit well in the game. PM me if you want and we can discuss this.
Didn't mess with crafting much in either playthrough but when I did mess with it it seemed like it went well. The only drawback I saw was a slight discrepency between what could be crafted and crafting skill. You really need to put buckets of points into the 5 disciplines of crafting to make any decent gear. I think this needs a slight modification to make it a bit easier to craft better items. Again haven't experimented with this much but that's what I could see when I did mess with it.
The new economy and barter system wasn't as bad as I thought it was on paper. Trying it out it still felt pretty balanced for the most part. My suggestion here is to make sure that more items are able to be sold. There are some items that NO SHOPKEEPER ever wanted. I think the vast majority of items should be able to be sold to someone at some point. I do feel the system is still a little too restrictive in the sense that most shopkeepers buy very little. Maybe instead of having a guy buying for example...3 firearms...2 vests....3 blueprints....Have that same guy buy 4 ranged weapons.....3 armors.....4 blueprints instead of restricting it to a strict type you can restrict it to a general type and slightly increase the number they want to buy. I do feel the system is more tactical and I see why you implemented it but I think it could be a tad less restrictive while still keeping the idea you're going for with it.
I think the amount of quests could be increased slightly. Not even much but maybe from beginning of Alpha to end maybe 3-4 more would have been about right. This would increase the immersion in certain areas and increase play time in these areas.
I think a map of some sort should be implemented. Maybe even something simple like a radar type thing. Have a special item that either has a rough sketch of surrounding areas you can download into another item or the notelog or have a radar type weapon that can read surrounding areas somehow. Doesn't have to be a hand holding auto-map but something simple to track progress and locate areas you may have missed.
Graphics are good for what the game is and has that dark gritty feel. Great atmosphere.
Is the loot you get from boxes and shelves and such random? If not I think it should be at least in most cases. I also think every locked box etc. should have at least SOMETHING in them even if its 1 stygian coin. Kind of disappointing to open locked stuff up and get nothing (well I guess you technically get the EXP it took to open it up). I also think the amount of good items you get from boxes, shelves, etc. locked or not is abysmal. Seems like you get more crafting parts and stuff that has little or no us instead of fully functioning things. Upping quality find a bit I think would make it a little more exciting to get loot. Seems most of the best stuff is had from killing human enemies and even then that's not always the case.
Can't think of anything else for the moment. Overall the quality is definitely rising and is shaping up to being a very good game. Keep at it and I wish you the best. And congrats on the progress thus far.
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Thanks for the feedback, man. I agree with most of it.
- HP and, imo even more importantly damage, of the NPCs might need some tweaking and higher levels. I'm going to look into this after the energy shields are introduced since they will add a new dimension to combat and should boost player effective health pool considerably.
- If you have suggestions please post them on the suggestion forums. I read them all of them and I do sometimes borrow from them if I like the idea :)
- I think the crafting system is fine regarding requirements. Player will sometimes get components that are ahead of their skill, but I think that's also good motivation to keep playing. For most crafting skills, it's usually required that you max it out if you want to craft from stuff that you find, and I think that's fine. If I do some re-balancing here, it will probably be when the game nears completion.
- I intend to easy up the restrictions on merchants slightly with the next update and also to look into which item categories are currently not requested at all.
- I don't know about local map. I don't think there would be much value in it since you can just scroll around and see most of it easily anyway (especially on today's monitors). If I do end up implementing it, it will probably have more purpose than just looking at the terrain layout
- Loot is not completely random, it's separated by category (electrical components, firearms, meds, etc). We'll probably go through the maps once to make sure all the locked containers do. :) It wasn't my intention to troll anyone, it's just that when I was reducing the amount of loot in GMS and Depot A (it was insane before) I didn't pay attention to which containers are locked.
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in the future update will the max level be raised?thank you
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@epili & Styg - Ok then. I will start posting ideas for weapons, armor, feats, and psionics in the suggestion forums. Thanks to both of you for the reply.
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in the future update will the max level be raised?thank you
At some point it will be raised. Probably to level 30.
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- Loot is not completely random, it's separated by category (electrical components, firearms, meds, etc). We'll probably go through the maps once to make sure all the locked containers do. :) It wasn't my intention to troll anyone, it's just that when I was reducing the amount of loot in GMS and Depot A (it was insane before) I didn't pay attention to which containers are locked.
well really lots of locked boxes and container were extremly... empty=)
Anyway this version made me replay the game with great interest. New economic, locations, enemies - everything is awesome.
personally i'm waiting for plasma and laser rifles.
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Great Patch! Here is some feedback.
-Oddity System
First of all, I really like where this game is going. I really like the oddity system as much as I like it classic (+ the chose to choose between them is awesome). It is true that the oddity system doesn't let you level up quickly early game, but in my experience that ain't a problem at all and this level gap closes itself really quick when you visit the junkyard. This "treasure hunt" for Oddity's is really working out for me.
-Enemy's and Combat
Difficulty is good, people complaining about how enemy's "should be nerfed in HP". Haha sorry, but is this Call of Duty? Even those nasty faceless with there lasers and plasma ain't no match for a gamer that really want to take the enemy down. I hope the combat will be even more difficult as the game progresses.
-Map Design
Underrail still feels like Underail but some of the new areas feels a bit empty to me. I can see that still a lot of corridors and routes are dead ends. I can imagine that if the new areas are completed the "emptiness" of the already existing areas (with the dead ends) will go away so I will just wait and see how it will play out in further patches. The appearance of the new areas are stunning, especially Rails Crossing. I find the stores that are inside of railcars with graffiti on them really appealing!
-Item Condition and Repair
No more problems with my weapons or amours conditions. I think this is balanced out really well and even if it is slightly nerfed back (quicker decay) it still wouldn't be a problem for me. Lots of junk can be converted to scrap to make repairkits, no more problems spending all my money on repairkits.
-Loot, Money and Merchants
There is more loot, found in better conditions. Great! There ain't much of a difference in how much money I am making. My inventory value has gone up, but I can't sell all of it so the money stays about the same.
Merchants are ok too, but I do think they have a poor selection of items you can sell to them and in small quantity. If this was buffed a little it would give hoarders like me a better time selling there loot.
My main source of money (I thought I saw LazyMonk say the same thing) is by recycling all my loot I can't carry and convert it into repairkits. You don't get as rich from this as selling it manually (items not recycled into repairkits) but you will never have broken weapons again + the items you do wanna sell (lets say a expensive sniper) you can repair to boost up the value!
-Item Management and Weight
This is something I do have some criticism about. I love the idea of items having a weight, its more realistic this way. You can't carry all the loot of Underrail in your backpack. However at the moment I find myself really short on inventory space. I hate that I can't move at all when I have all my loot in my pocket but I can live with this. But if I only had like 50 more base weight that would be great.
They biggest problem I run into was item management. I go to my room, stash my loot, and find myself click and drag all my stuff into the lockers/shelfs for about half an hour. Also you can't stack inside a container (example stacking 5 mindshrooms from your inventory on 2 mindshrooms in your locker).
SUGGESTIONS
I understand that boosting 50 base weight is too much to ask, so here is a alternative that sounds really appealing. Make a item 'Backpack', it will be equipped on the belt spot. You gain 25 weight BUT it will cost you 10 movement points.
Here is an other one. Make item management a bit less frustrating for those hoarders. By holding down [keyboard key] and click on a item in your inventory while there is a container opened, the item will automatically transfer to the container, visa versa. Also stacking goods inside containers and a 'sort' button in your rooms containers (the lockers, shelf and desk) would be a REALLY great update! :D
-Bugs
Last but not least, I came to my attention that the bulletbelt (I cant remember the name, the item that reduces reloading time) and the medicinebelt (the one for low cost AP healing) are nowhere to be found in my games (not as loot and merchants don't sell those). The only belts available are the liftingbelt, vigorousbelt, trappersbelt and the utilitybelt.
Overall: great patch, love the new content. Styg, you know your stuff!
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At some point it will be raised. Probably to level 30.
I would love to know that the current content is only 30% of the game... I have already sunk over 60h into it and it's only an alpha. It makes me sad that the game has to end somewhere, because I would prefer level 50 finish.
Seriously, I do not want the game to end. :'(
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yeah I know what you mean, it would be nice if the speed run of this game was 100.000 hours long, but alas such is not possible. Still when this one is fully released I'm sure there will be room for either DLC which allows many more hours of gameplay though it will of course require time or simply an underrail 2.
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yeah I know what you mean, it would be nice if the speed run of this game was 100.000 hours long, but alas such is not possible. Still when this one is fully released I'm sure there will be room for either DLC which allows many more hours of gameplay though it will of course require time or simply an underrail 2.
Indeed. The adventure will not be over with the full release, don't worry. ;)
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And here, ladies and gentlemen, you can see the difference between your average AAA product and a well managed and lovingly crafted indie game:
People anxiously crave DLCs. 8)
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It doesn't means a DLC has to actually be small. Just because some companies make tiny DLCs and squeeze a lot of money for it, it doesn't means that other developers have to follow suit in a bad direction. There have been games in the past ho received major DLC updates that added so much that it was awesome. I know that the DLC's for the pit were for the most part big, only one of them was small cause it mainly had 3 new classes and a few extra stuff to craft. FTL is receiving a major free DLC this year too. I am sure Styg knows what he does there. If he makes a DLC it will be certainly well worth it, if not then there will be an underrail 2 for sure.
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It doesn't means a DLC has to actually be small. Just because some companies make tiny DLCs and squeeze a lot of money for it, it doesn't means that other developers have to follow suit in a bad direction. There have been games in the past ho received major DLC updates that added so much that it was awesome. I know that the DLC's for the pit were for the most part big, only one of them was small cause it mainly had 3 new classes and a few extra stuff to craft. FTL is receiving a major free DLC this year too. I am sure Styg knows what he does there. If he makes a DLC it will be certainly well worth it, if not then there will be an underrail 2 for sure.
QFT. Stuff like horse armor and that sort of crap tend to add bad connotations to the term "DLC", but there are also games that released DLCs that are well worth the price and expand the game quite substantially, much like the classic expansions of the old days but with a more convenient delivery system.
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Ok I've decided to give this game a very short go, I wanted to take a look at the new economy system in action. I already knew from the patch notes that I wouldn't like it, as I've expressed my opinion here before but I decided, let's just do the first quest and see into how many problems I'll run into. This is what I found.
I've cleared the first area and the one to the left where there is the generator. killed every rathound, looted everything and went back (yes I didn't even finished the quest) cause I needed healing. Now when I got back I managed to sell a couple guns, my starting one and the one I found. I sold a few bullets and some leather. then I was left with a ton of stuff I just couldn't sell because no one even bought them to begging with. I'm talking about things like hearts and scraps and other misclaneous components. This is stuff that is actually worth a lot of money but where are the buyers? Not only there is none, but judging from the quantities of stuff merchants buy I'd sell probably 3 pieces and then wait 90 minutes for them to reset to be able to sell more. This is just plain wrong and bear in mind, I have barelly played but already I am unable to sell stuff that I have no use for and that is worth quite a bit of money... I haven't managed to run into weight problems and I was sure I wasn't going to early game, that is why I thought of only atempting the first quest but if 10 minutes into the game I am already having these problems with selling stuff, I can't imagine how horrible it will become later on.
Another that I hadn't thought before but became so clearly evident after I tried to buy or sell anything. I'm am always going to have much worse trades than before. When merchants bought everything I could min max the less valuable stuff I had to make the trade as fair as possible because the merchant does not loses even one 1 credit so now you have to always pay more than the stuff is worth or sell for less than the stuff is worth.
Lastly this is not directly related to the new economy systembut I'd like to add it none the less... Sure a pure Psi build is possible from the beggining, but it's at a major disadvantage. Everyone buys a few bullets, finds a few more and still has money to buy everything else but a psiker will have to buy Psi boosters by the ton throughout the whole game. Now later on this will not be as much of a problem but initially they will only be able to afford them and nothing else because psi boosters give enough Psi to kill 3 creatures in average (around 45 psi per kill if everything goes perfectly and the bosster only gives 170, but it's highly likelly that here and there you need a third attack to make the kill which means more psi spent ). Now Psi boosters do are cheaper, but 700 per psi booster = 700 cost to kill 3 enemies, that's far from effective and while yes, you can use other weapons and use Psi whenever necessary only, it's very innefective considering your skills will make Psi deal a lot of damage, everything else is subpar damage wise which means that not only it takes a lot longer to kill the enemies, but it also means you take more damage and are spending on healing instead.
I haven't tested the innitiative system because from the notes I found it to be unrelliable. What people need is to have a way to make sure they always act first. Stealth inherently does that even if with slight penalties to movement now it is still the best way to start of an engagement because you have the first turn and you can setup the battle accordingly to whatever you scout first... I'd sugest making the innitiative system less unrelliable, much less RNG related. It is important to know when you're going to have the first turn and when you aren't.
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then I was left with a ton of stuff I just couldn't sell because no one even bought them to begging with. I'm talking about things like hearts and scraps and other misclaneous components. This is stuff that is actually worth a lot of money but where are the buyers?
I have to say this was actually my main gripe with the update. I liked the new weight system because it meant we have to stop and think about the loot we take, but only to be unable to sell half of it anyway? just makes it seem pointless, really. I don't have a problem with merchants only buying things they actually deal in, this helps with immersion, but being unable to offload all the stuff you've collected just crosses over into frustration. Personally i wouldn't mind having merchants pay full price for the first 2-3 items you sell them, then considerably slash the value of the trade for any more you sell to them, just as long as there isn't a cap on the quantity that you can sell.
I'd sugest making the innitiative system less unrelliable, much less RNG related. It is important to know when you're going to have the first turn and when you aren't.
according to the wiki initiative is calculated as agility + dexterity + random number from 1-15. it is certainly possible to put initiative in your favour by putting more points into those stats. (if you have a stealthy build you should already have pretty high agility though) I quite like how it works really, with the dice roll adding more depth to the mechanic. part of the fun of this game is not always knowing what consequences your actions will have, moreso with regards to combat!
i've never really played with psi that much, but i always thought it was supposed to be more of a support than something for you to rely on all the time. correct me if i'm wrong.
Altogether i'm quite pleased with this update, i love the oddity xp system because it makes levelling up so much more exciting than grinding, and the new quests/ dungeons were fantastic - especially the abandoned warehouse (which i'm curious to learn much more about, especially with regards to the story). Keep up the good work Styg!
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Well taken into account that at best you could start with 20 initiative and that would mean severely hamper your other stats and what is rolled has a chance of going up to 15... that is a major. I think rolls should be no higher than between 1 aand 3. It shouldn't be luck dependent on something that is this imporntant. As for having a stealthy character... nope. 5agi, 5dex. I just use the stealth to approuch the enemies to the range and place I feel right and then make sure I also have the first turn. You don't need a super stealthy build.
As for Psi being mostly support, you couldn't be more wrong. It can deal moderate to high damage although it's not really competing with sniper rifles or really good greandes the damage is pretty good, now iclude stuns, abillity to block stuff, paralises, fears.
One of my favorite things to do was to make a copy of each enemy human in range to get them attacking the original form (bilocation used with the feat that makes psy spells AoE) and then use the spell that creates a wall off thus blocking the enemy from attacking me in any way... Hilarious because the duplicates can only be hurt by psi attacks XD... Psi is very real for a primary weapon and it addapts to almost all situations because of it's utillity value even if damage wise it's not the highest when you compare it to a 7 burst assault rifle or a sniper shot or even a mk5 grenade.
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Well, it still is quite random. Don't get me wrong, I think this is a step in the right direction and indeed there is always stealth but it's hardly worth not taking stealth and go into combat not knowing who will act first which can just turn into you getting murdered in the first round of combat. The funny thing is that what improves initiative, also improves stealth so it would always be benefitial to take stealth with the abillities that grant initiative which in a way kinda renders it less useful. I think that only one characteristic should count towards it, the one that does not beneficts stealth and again, I still think the randomness is wrong. I can understand what you say that it's not supposed to dominate but it should, it should be an active replacement for the use of stealth... You know, give other options... But that's just my opinion anyway.
As for the merchant. WellI belive quinton buys animal organs, he wasn't when I tried to sell him the stuff but I too thought it would make sense he would. Never the less it is still true that the whole limited buy system is just game hurting. It's not like it limits what a player sells and what he'll just end up throwing away because he can't sell, it only increases the furstation of having to sell the items due to the sheer time factor involved. It ends up being a waste of time, not even a time sink but pure waste of time trying to sell everything and that leads to frustation that isn't even coming from the game being hard but rather from a silly mechanic... I also merits that as I said, you cannot make trades fairer to minimise your loss buy using less valueable items to try to round values up as even as possible because the currency was made in a weird way.
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This is stuff that is actually worth a lot of money but where are the buyers? Not only there is none, but judging from the quantities of stuff merchants buy I'd sell probably 3 pieces and then wait 90 minutes for them to reset to be able to sell more. This is just plain wrong and bear in mind, I have barelly played but already I am unable to sell stuff that I have no use for and that is worth quite a bit of money... I haven't managed to run into weight problems and I was sure I wasn't going to early game, that is why I thought of only atempting the first quest but if 10 minutes into the game I am already having these problems with selling stuff, I can't imagine how horrible it will become later on.
1. Your room can be used as storage (stash loot, sell later).
2. The whole idea of the new economy system is to discourage people from all stuff they don't need. Just do not pick that stuff up.
3. The loot that you can't sell like those hearts ain't nothing compared to the loot you can sell later on. It is more easy to find top-notch guns in excellent condition (either repaired or found in perfect shape). Money isn't a issue in this patch.
Sure a pure Psi build is possible from the beggining, but it's at a major disadvantage.
I really disagree with this statement. Last game I had a Psi-build and I think the Psi-build is the most CHEAP build at the moment. In the beginning it is hard because you must earn some money first to buy those expensive psiboosters, but later on when there is enough money to go around, you will have a 'unlimited' supply of psi. Also your psi doesn't need any repairs. Plus to think that psi doesn't cost you any weight! Only a few psiboosters, can't be more than all my guns and bullets I am carrying :P.
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epili - Lose a coin here and a coin there and you're lossing quite a few because you are forced to do multiple trades. Not so hurtful up ahead but it is a pain in the ass in the beggining.
Banggunner - sure you can stash stuff. That only means that the amount of stuff you have to sell keeps on increasing if you simply sell what you can, stash the rest and continue the game.
The new economic system does not discourages players from picking everything up, in fact it's naive to think that it will. The vast majority of players will pick everything up and will end up so frustated trying to sell everything that they will rather give up the game altogether thinking it was poorly designed, they won't even think of what were the reasonings behind the system.
It doesn't matter what the loot I can't sell is compared to what I get later on, I'm still not being able to sell loot now, loot that would give me more money and make me able to buy more stuff that I need.
One more thing reguarding any RPG that has a loot system. Looting is a major part of the game, it's one of the most core fun factors of the game and what are you doing? Saying, loot only the good stuff, leave the rest... Fun factor is sinking like the titanic.
As for the Psi. I am not sure you read what I said or possibly didn't undestood although I have other posts in this matter. Going up ahead, yes Psi is superior for it lack of need of repairs, buying upgraded weapon versions, etc... But starting it's a huge money sink! The disadvantage of the starting Psi to any other combat oriented build is huge in terms of investment... It's even fair to say that going forward it can be bigger than anything else because even if you use Psi you will still use other weapons which means still invest in ammo and new weapons as upgraded versions become available. Now obviously you don't invest much into repairs except armor wise perhaps and spend much less in ammunition, but still, you spend a lot more into psi boosters because let's be honest, 3 sniper rounds are a lot cheaper than a psi booster. Even making a grenade mk5 is a lot cheaper than a psi booster and much more effective than any spell combinations you can throw at the enemy for the cost of one psi booster.
What I mean here is that shroomhead was a decent feat that balanced this out, if there was a problem with it was having to go back to he nearest mindshroom to recover which resulted in a lot of down time... The changes not only made the skill totally useless, but made Psi builds a lot more expensive and by comparison, less balanced especially early on.
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Your idea of looting is very personal. Looting is not about traveling with a wheel barrel gathering every item in the game. I know it might be for you, but that's your own idea of fun.
Don't claim it as a fact. The game didn't became less fun because it broke your looting rules.
It became less fun to you, and i am sorry to hear that.
To me, and this is my personal opinion so it is worth what it is, i find the looting at the game much more fun now.
I am having more fun with Underrail now than ever before.
Glad you gave it a try.
Edit: I should have read the whole thread and erased some parts of my post.
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Well it is a fact that the vast majority of people like looting. If you are forced not to loot or loot less anyway then it detracts from the looting part of the game... No game in which there is a loot system is it made in order for you not to pick up everything.
It is good you are having some fun and I'm sure many others are. I wonder how many people who bought the game and don't use the foruns actually enjoy this though. I also fear for the success of the game once it's fully release to try and go forward with this because quite frankly, I can't see that many people enjoying this looting system... I only hope that soon there will be an option included to just disable buy limits from merchants and maybe one to disable weight limits... The last one not being a major gripe but it would be nice just as well. At the end of the days these are just gymics that waste time rather than serve the purpose they intend.
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Well it is a fact that the vast majority of people like looting.
Yes it is, i agree.
If you are forced not to loot or loot less anyway then it detracts from the looting part of the game...
Now, that's your conclusion that's based on your personal preferences.
The lack of inventory restrictions made my looting experience less relevant, less meaningful, with no room for any other choice other than hitting the take all button.
It is good you are having some fun and I'm sure many others are. I wonder how many people who bought the game and don't use the foruns actually enjoy this though.
You are the voice of does who have none? Are those people the majority? Are they fans of the oldschool rpgs?
I also fear for the success of the game once it's fully release to try and go forward with this because quite frankly, I can't see that many people enjoying this looting system...
I doubt having a limited inventory is going to harm the game financially since its present in almost all rpgs. The fact of vendors not buying every item you have is still work in progress, but it has been welcomed from many posters here at the forums. I am sure people on steam forums may dislike most of these changes but i would never use their community feedback, specially about old school hardcore rpgs. They are complaining about Blackguards difficulty and that how awful it is to read the manual before you play.
I only hope that soon there will be an option included to just disable buy limits from merchants and maybe one to disable weight limits...
I wouldn't really mind this, if it meant you could enjoy the game again. I mean i cant believe what fun you can have when the economy breaks when you hit the Junkyard, but i wouldn't object of you having that choice.
I love to play Il2-1946, and i play it with realism to the max.
But people still have the choice to play with huds and third person views.
This doesn't hurt the game (only the multiplayer to people like myself >:() because it was made
towards a realistic approach even if it allowed a more arcadish gameplay.
I am sure these it would be the same with Underrail because it isn't being built around a limitless inventory system. Hell, even the old Rainbow Six had the option for auto aim...
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But starting it's a huge money sink! The disadvantage of the starting Psi to any other combat oriented build is huge in terms of investment... It's even fair to say that going forward it can be bigger than anything else because even if you use Psi you will still use other weapons which means still invest in ammo and new weapons as upgraded versions become available. Now obviously you don't invest much into repairs except armor wise perhaps and spend much less in ammunition, but still, you spend a lot more into psi boosters because let's be honest, 3 sniper rounds are a lot cheaper than a psi booster.
I understand your opinion in this and yes I read your posts too, I find them very interesting to read. Just giving my opinion in all of this.
It is true that it is a bit more expensive but still you make it sound like a really big problem and in my experience that isn't the case. People tend to stack there money early on, instead of that I am "wasting" it on psi. It maby seems like a bad idea but you will earn it back midgame anyway (around Junkyard), enough money to go around (the economy has better exchange rates now). Also with all the crits and stuff I can do far more damage with 1 psibooster then I can with 3 sniperbullets. Yes a sniper can crit too but I can only fire 1 shot at the time, for instance natural overload can be casted 2 times in 1 turn.
As for the argument that I still need to buy weapons: instead of buying/crafting 2 or 3 big guns I only craft 1 pistol. That balances out the psi money. It still is a bit more expensive but it really is worth the money and most important, its affordable. Don't forget you can craft psiboosters too!
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Well it is a fact that the vast majority of people like looting.
Actually that is the only reason I play most of the games. I mean what is the point of heaving real world limitations (can't steal everything, can't shoot everyone) in a video game? I might as well turn off the PC and go outside! :D
It is good you are having some fun and I'm sure many others are. I wonder how many people who bought the game and don't use the foruns actually enjoy this though.
I'm betting captcha is preventing many from registering it is really hard if you have eyesight problems.
I only hope that soon there will be an option included to just disable buy limits from merchants and maybe one to disable weight limits... The last one not being a major gripe but it would be nice just as well. At the end of the days these are just gymics that waste time rather than serve the purpose they intend.
Maybe we need some kind of compromise, based on my previous idea of taking over a existing merchant business: http://underrail.com/forums/index.php?topic=750.msg4059#msg4059 , maybe some kind of pawn shop in which you can leave any of your stuff on the shelves and either take very small amount of money immediately or return on regular basis and random item would get sold and player gets a bit more money (but still lower then with real merchant). That way we have a place to dump all our loot and not waste time running from merchant to merchant.
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Lazymonk - What inventory restrictions? You have a carry limit? Make multiple trips. You have a merchant that only buys a limited amount of suplies per reset, wait until you can sell everything... You only create downtime and frustation here you are not limiting anything in any real way. Want to limit loot? Limit the drops because there is no way around that, if there is a way around, at best you just create time waste.
One thing is to complain about a game being difficult or needing to read a manual (Although I find reading a manual in these day and ages something wrong. Games should have a tutorial to deal with that instead of making people waste time reading a lot of stuff because a tutorai lexplains all and much more quickly, not to mention in a way that doesn't leaves room for confusion), another thing is to complain that the game has a huge downtime that does not ends up serving the purpose for which it was created which leads to frustation. These are my point but we do agree, so long as there is at least the option to remove the waste of time everyone can enjoy the game in the way that pleases them better.
Banggunner - Crit a sniper shot? just use aimed shot feat. You also have the sniper feat which although it makes no crit, damages are even higher than crits, either way both skills lead to one shot kill on anything! likewise, a mk5 grenade nearly oneshots anything except the very toughest opponents which are left on a sliver of health with a bad roll... I've never seen an overload deal enough damage to kill, even on a crit and I tend to do full psion builds... Only the flamethrower stands a better chance at one shooting stuff and even then it usually doesn't if it's a somewhat tough opponent, even humans can survive it... I still feel that every other build has a much better bang for the money at the time due to he cost of psi boosters and there not being a way to recover at least some psi for free between fights. You do are right that we can craft psi boosters but how many will you craft? It's not like mindshrooms pop up in large quantities in every map, not to mention that no one sells them.
My personal experience with Psi and a guns/grenade build is that Psi ran more money before but I had shroomhead to recover me 40% of the psi prior to every battle. After a while I sued a few boosters when I knew a fight was gonna be more psi intensive and needed more psi than just 40%. Now I am absolutly sure that with no passive psi recover it's much more expensive to run a psi user than a gun freak... As for whether or not it makes difference up ahead... All I can say is this. When I left for the junkyard I felt like I had a ton of money, when I got there I was like... ok, things are stupidly expensive so I don't have money to even aford anything. When I finished the junkyard I felt like I had a ton of money (My psi user had about 1/3 more money at the time but again, shroomhead was usefull back then) the thing is. I'm sure that's how economy is balanced, when you go into the next town, your money is going to not be as much as you think. Even if things don't go as high, forget thinking you're stinking rich, you'll maybe buy a gun and that's it, you're broke again. At least that is how I feel it will be going forward taking the previous examples.
Ivan Baijo - While the pawn shop might look like a good idea, it doesn't solves anything does it? You are still wasting a load of time to sell your items or you sell it at a very low value which just means a huge money loss anyway. The idea is to remove the time waste of the game. To keep you going from mission to side mission and from side mission to exploration without having to... Let's go make a round through all the merchants, try to sell everything and if I can't, wait 90 minutes for a shop refresh, until all is sold or at least the vast majority and you don't feel like caring about only a couple items left.
Edit: Another thing I cmpletly forgot was that this system even makes crafting a lot more useless. Now sure, you can craft stuff to use which is still great. But when you have materials that you don't need what do you do? You craft stuff to sell cause it earns you a few extra bucks, it was one of the greatest advantages of crafting. Now it's kinda nullified because either the item may not be on demand, or it may just not be on high enough demand that you can sell as much as you can craft... Again, just wait loads of time or just don't make the items, lose more money (which again puts crafting in a worse spot).
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I belive it should be an option from the game. at very least it acknowledges it as being a serious problem to many players and makes sure to at least ensure that they enjoy the game without the need to relly on anyone to make the game good for them.
Also you first say that the gymics serve their purpose by limiting the player to what he can do and then later on in respose to another comment I make you say they restrict but don't limit after all... I do belive you realise that in reality they just don't limit at all. They make you waste more time and that's it. Some people will just not care for it and leave stuff behind or recicle some stuff. This isn't the game limiting them, they are limiting themselfs so that they can enjoy the game. To some people having to limit themself in order to enjoy the game means that they are not enjoying themselves at all. Let me tell you how I (and I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd think exactly the same way) would do if I was to play this game... Start the game, do a quest, loot everything, maybe pause in between if I need to go and sell stuff cause my carry limit was hit. I get to the base/town and sell a few things... Well I can't sell more but I need to sell all of this junk so I let the game running in the background for a hour and a half, then I go back to it and sell more stuff. I do thise several times probably to the point that I spend a whole day doing part of a quest and the rest is just selling. Now tell me how much fun this is and how immersive the gameplay will be for me and like me, many others. At the end of the day, this has not served the purpose of making me skip the less valuable items, it has only wasted a lot of my time and will eventually (sooner than later) make me stop playing altogether... So yes, it's is a gymic that does not serve it's purpose.
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Now this is only my own opinion. But smart looting is looting all, if you sell all you gain more and quite frankly you may say don't bother with the worthless stuff and yet you forget that the so called worthless stuff is worth at very least 1/3 of your total possible income. just the small experience I've done I had 4 hearths, 6 livers and 2 leather pieces just to name the best of the so called worthless stuf. That is worth a ton of money and this maintains throughout the game. breaking stuff or leaving it behind is a huge loss, it's not smart at all in my opinion.
Even if I kept stuff near a trader and went off to continue. It'sd come back, with any luck I'd sell half a dozen items and then would have another 20 more on top of what I already have. It doesn't solves the problem.
And yeah, I don't doubt traders could run out of money, I've managed that in the previous patch so it wouldn't surprise me if they did now. The problem starts with the money being handle in (again my opinion) the wrong way. they should not have an inventory slot and even if they must absolutly have one, it shouldn't be limited to normal stacks. Similarly, merchants should just have an unlimited amount of cash!
And I know you want to try to make me see the good points. I've said it before, this patch has a lot of good stuff, but it brought a lot of bad stuff too, the problem for me is that th bad far outweights the good in the game at this point in time I really cannot even play it, I'd go insane and I tried giving it a go just to be fair and see how bad it was and it was just as bad as I expected (again this is my opinion), it completly ruins any fun i might have with the game... It could even be true that right now, even if i just picked half a dozen items per quest and still made more money than before and everything is cheaper, I just couldn't do it, it completly wrecks all the fun in the game and it's so incredibly frustating that I cannot even put it into words.
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No, I don't mean more useful, I mean more useless because crafting lost even more use than it had before and the problem it had before was that you could hardly use crafting to stay ahead of the curve, it was always better to just buy items because they were better and by the time you could craft better, welcome the new area with much better items than you can craft... Now crafting can't even be ued as a means to make money.
Let's take your example here. No one is buying, extra chemicals... And why would I have the skills for that when it's a waste to go into crafting? Crafting meds I'll only go as far as the minimum needed skills for psi boosters and that is if i find it I really need that badly.
You leather example is, let's waste a ton of leather and armor and make some repair kits. First you are wasting lots of money into making repair kits, completly inneficient (not to mention waste skill points into a crafting system that isn't exactly good) and then there is a limit of how many they buy while I'll be accumlating those like crazy for really no purpose.
If you think the item system is fun like this... well that is you I guess. I like the possible interactions, but I don't like that the game tries to force you waste money for no good reason.
I don't think it'sfun to skip any possible money unless you are doing it for RP reasons. As in I won't help this guy cause I don't like him. Skipping money just because I already have a decent amount is not smart and while you say it is because you still have more than enough money, you are only saving yourself the bother it takes to get the extra money, I say the problem is not the bother that you have to go to get the extra money but rather the game mechanics itself which are not good.
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How is crafting useless? I find it to be so awesome. ???
First crafting is much cheaper than buying from a vendor.
Getting a metal armor before hitting the GMS compound can be quite expensive, but you can do it for much less if you just buy or scavenge
each component.
Second, stuff made by the player has the potential to be much better than the stuff you find in stores. It does depend on your luck though.
Third, variety. Most of the time a vendor doesn't have what you exactly seek.
I want a metal armor, but with a penalty no higher than 65% and all these are above 70%.
I want a hurricane crossbow, but there are none with a scope for sale.
I want a leather armor with resistance to acid, yada yada yada...
Forth, crafting is now more useful because we have a weight limit. Why? Well because i can recycle heavy items and turn them on repair kits.
Repair kits are lighter so you can still clean the place, and you save money you would otherwise spend on buying kits.
Its a waste? Its hardly a waste transforming items you wouldn't carry or that no one would be willing to buy.
If no one is willing to buy a piece of leather armor, that it is worth ZERO. Repair kits on the other hand are not.
Fifth, the so called crafting skills are not just for crafting. With the mechanics skill you can fix the elevator at the GMS compind.
I don't know of any others but its quite possible that Styg wishes to add more skill checks based on Technological skills.
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Crafting is cheaper? Yes, especially useful for grenades really. Crafting metal armor before the gms compound? I dunno, I've never seen it being possible because the materials are never readly available and usually when they are, they are WAY over your crafting skill. If you are EXTREMELY lucky then yes, it might be nice to have a very underpowered metal armor to do the GMS cause it's still a metal armor compared to what you'd have otherwise. But again you will still spend quite a lot and need to be lucky beyond reasoning.
Second. It isn't quite like that. By the time you leave the home base you will be able to craft better stuff than what is there, but not better stuff than is on the junkyard. When you leave the junkyard you can craft better stuff than there is on the junkyard but not better than wherever you're going next.
Third. Variety is not a factor when we are thinking that to craft something that has that special bonus like a scope on a crossbow, you are losing 1/3 of damage in comparison to what is available on the new town. This not to say that vendors while not always having what you are looking for in exact match, sometimes they do. It's better to do without but not lose damage or total armor and when it becomes available, trade for the good version.
Forth, yes it's a waste because of the merchants! Yes you recicle items to turn them into repair kits, soon you'll be carrying god knows how many of them without a use for so much repair kit and the amount you might be able to sell to a merchant is minimal... This not to mention that it would be worth more money to simply sell the heavy item.
The money you'd spend on kits would be minimal, you need at best to have 2 or 3 kits of each type just in case you find an item better than what you're using. If you need a kit to repair something to sell, you can do that when you get to the store and you only do that if it's worth doing that.
It is a waste to use resources to make items so that you then recicle those items for scraps to make kits. The waste is just beyond words. Before one of the big things was. crafting can be used to make money, all those leather pieces and stuff. just make armors and sell them. Now you've got the crafting for sale system completly ruined, you cannot refute this and in this, crafting lost more value.
If no one is willing to buy a piece of leather armor then it's not that the piece of armor is worth 0. It's a game design flaw. On the other hand if you have 100 repair kits, do tell me what the heck do you need so many for. And don't forget, the numbers just keep on growing because you'll always get more than you will spend and sell.
Fifth, I actually never knew that the GMS elevator could be repaired, but then again what is the point? I can get down there anyway. I also have a feeling that you can get mostly everywhere without crafting skills. Maybe at game completation there will be a few optional areas that need a certain amount of skill in this or that to get there, but you know what? It will not make much of a difference, just some area with a bit of loot you were forced to skip for not having the skills. I'm pretty sure that similarly there will be areas that you need Psi to go, or certain skills or atributes. That is to say no character will ever be able to get in all areas!
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Underrail is really encouraging (in my experience!) a free playstyle. Like said before merchants will run out of money anyway so you will be rich anyhow (before and after this patch), looting anything may be useful but it actually doesn't mean much unless you are spending money like crazy instead of making objectives for yourself what major item you wanna buy next. Ever played Diablo 1? You can't loot all loot in that game too and the market prizes are crazy, but I found that really appealing. The game makes exploring and advancing more rewarding then trying and do complete all of the less rewarding things like collecting and hoarding useless stuff. Same thing applies to the Fallout series, lot of stuff to find but you can't loot all. It gives the game a more adventures feel, instead of mindless grinding. Its called a RPG for a reason right?
As for crafting, focusing on something you wanna craft and only collecting those ingredients will assist you, using the crafting more in a assisting way. For example, if you are psi, at least collect all the shrooms or only collect electronics you know you are gonna need in the future. Most of that stuff is cheap anyway or like the hearts and hides and stuff that are "so valuable", can be found on respawning enemy's.
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Crafting is cheaper? Yes, especially useful for grenades really.
Useful? But i thought crafting was USELESS! Oh well thinking on absolutes.
Crafting metal armor before the gms compound? I dunno, I've never seen it being possible because the materials are never readly available and usually when they are, they are WAY over your crafting skill.
Are NEVER readily available? That's a very strange never. But i have been doing it every time now and they are not WAY OVER my crafting skill or i would not be able to do it, time over time. Again absolutes.
If you are EXTREMELY lucky
By my experience i would say i would be EXTREMELY UNLUCKY not to get all the components i need since i usually do on my playthroughs.
Second. It isn't quite like that. By the time you leave the home base you will be able to craft better stuff than what is there, but not better stuff than is on the junkyard. When you leave the junkyard you can craft better stuff than there is on the junkyard but not better than wherever you're going next.
It varies. Depends on your int value and what components do you manage to find.
Third. Variety is not a factor when we are thinking that to craft something that has that special bonus like a scope on a crossbow, you are losing 1/3 of damage in comparison to what is available on the new town. This not to say that vendors while not always having what you are looking for in exact match, sometimes they do. It's better to do without but not lose damage or total armor and when it becomes available, trade for the good version.
That's only true according to a very specific scenario that you made up. It has not been my experience. I find it very odd that you always have such negative data on crafting when my experience says other wise. Even Styg said he had a different experience.
Forth, yes it's a waste because of the merchants! Yes you recicle items to turn them into repair kits, soon you'll be carrying god knows how many of them without a use for so much repair kit and the amount you might be able to sell to a merchant is minimal... This not to mention that it would be worth more money to simply sell the heavy item.
You didnt understand. I will explain again. Imagine if you can only sell 6 guns to the local vendors, but you found 10. You can use four to become repair kits. Is this a waste? NO! Was either that or garbage because the vendors are NOT going to buy them.
It's a game design flaw. On the other hand if you have 100 repair kits, do tell me what the heck do you need so many for. And don't forget, the numbers just keep on growing because you'll always get more than you will spend and sell.
On the other hand if you have 100 repair kits, do tell me what the heck do you need so many for. And don't forget, the numbers just keep on growing because you'll always get more than you will spend and sell.
Ad absurdum. Why would you keep doing repair kits after you have more than enough to travel safely without having to go back. Oh right by the same reason we have to go back and forth to get and sell and the loot in game?
Fifth, I actually never knew that the GMS elevator could be repaired, but then again what is the point?
Here is the point. Instead of wasting psi, emp traps/grenades on those pesky bots, you can just sneak past them and you can completely avoid them in your way back. Is it much? Not really. Some people have become trapped on the third floor because as soon as they went one level up a couple of bots would be there to welcome you back. With the elevator thing? Problem solved.
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Grenades are one extreme. They are good things that you can hardly ever have enough enough if they are high level grenades so yeah it is useful for that purpose, it's one of the few real good uses. Crafting is still mostly useless in my experience although I'll admit most of it comes from the previous patch when the economy was in my opinion much better.
My experience tell me that all the necessary materials to craft anything that requires 2 or more components just won't all drop. When most of them drop at a much higher level than you are and what the merchants have usually is way higher level than what you can craft and by usually I mean at very least 3 or more levels away even on a high intelligence character. Again my experience comes from the previous patch.
And no, it doesn't varies on the quallity of the components I find. By the time I can craft something as good (tecnicly better because of possible upgrades such as scopes and whatnot but same damage levels) as what is on sale in that place, I've finished that place... Quite literally, by the time I had enough skill to make a gun as good as the ones on sale in the junkyard, I had already finished all the quests there. The problem wasn't finding the high quallity materials, the problem was having the skills to use them. So unless there was a serious tweek to the quallity required to make a certain item... Then it doesn't depends on what you can find or even your int score. this has always been my major problem with crafting. It should actually keep you ahead of the curve, not bellow just cause of minor upgrades.
And yes, this is only true accordingly to my specific scenario because I've given crafting a fair go and I've discovered the following. Doing health hyppos and psi boosters can be useful, but not really necessary. Making grenades is extremelly useful. Making traps is either bad or just not worth it. Everything else is just plain horrible. This played out during several tries, it wasn't a case of, I tried once, gave it up.
And yes it's a waste cause those guns would have been worth a lot of money, the merchant should just buy it. this is a game, some things must make a gammy sense, not a real world sense in order to make the game good.
Continuing from the previous point. You have many reapir kits why make more? Yes, less waste even more and just throw the guns away because no one will buy it and I don't want to be weighted down or have to go back and forth to sell them.
Here's my point (and take into consideration that it comes from someone who doesn't likes the oddity system and doesn't uses it). If I kill the bots I gain XP. If I search the whole area I will loot quite a bit of stuff. The only reason to fix the elevator, is so that you can just directly take it to the top floor from the 3 sub level and i find that not to be a good enough reason to invest skill points into it.
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Making traps is either bad or just not worth it.
Why? Why is that crafting grenades is so great and traps are so bad when they are quite similar? I had a character that used traps quite often and so crafting them was quite welcome. Not only i ended up with more traps than i would if i had only had bough them, as i also got traps that were much better than the ones for sale.
And yes it's a waste cause those guns would have been worth a lot of money, the merchant should just buy it.
The discussion of if it is or not a waste should be about Underrail in its current version and not the one that you would like to exist.
this is a game, some things must make a gammy sense, not a real world sense in order to make the game good.
But you don't get to say what should make "gammy sense" or "real world sense". Obviously this boils down to features you don't like. If you don't like them and they are also realistic or consistent with the game world, they should be replaced with a gammy approach.
What about ammo? Why should we have one type of ammo for each weapon? Why not just a universal ammo solution like the one found in Deus Ex 2? Would that make the game better?
Why should we have ammo at all? The player will just keep getting no matter what so the risk of running out of ammo is almost null, and having to look for a store that has the specific ammo you want is just annoying right?
We should have unlimited ammo like in Shadow Run. That would make the game better?
Since we are at it we should remove reloading. Reloading always comes at unfortunate times, and breaks the pace of the combat. Removing would make the game much better?
All these gamey features i mentioned are not inherently bad. They make sense on certain games.
They don't make as much sense on Underrail. Because they don't help portray a post apocalyptic environment.
There are different games for different people, and different people have fun with different games.
There seem to be plenty of things you dislike about Underrail, but these things also seem to have appeared with each update meaning that there was a time that the game was prefect for you. So you are resistant to change and fighting what this game was made to be.
I expected most of these changes before they were announced.
Because they made sense in this game and i could feel their absence.
To me Underrail is becoming a better game with each update.
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The reason why making traps is not worth it is because most traps aren't worth it. A grenade you use when you want, you just toss it when needed and boom, expected result archieved. Traps are many times avoided by enemies, they just path away from them many times as if they knew they'd be there, rarely do they step on it, they also require setup time which can be quite problematic and I dunno whether or not the resource problem was already dealth but they used to take double as much as the grenades in resources which made no sense but I think that was supposed to change, not sure if it did... Also a grenade is tossed in the middle of a crowd and you hit multiple targets. A mine you put in the way and only the first guy which moves in is hit. Huge waste!.. the only way to make a mine effective is in the cases where you can always setup a field and make the enemy come into it. But that requires first save scumming, waiting to see the enemy's predictable path and movement allowance, then plant a mine somewhere where no enemy steps on it. Then you let the enemies move aroud it and doss a grenade to detonate the mine catching them in a double explosion... Gymmicky as hell and only worth a cent if the field allows that amount of setup and if you don't have a high level grenade.
Ok if you want me to put it like this. The previous version was awesome, needing more stuff and tweeks but it was pretty awesome. The new one is just plain horrible due to the merchant changes. Before picking up loot and exploring was encouraged because you gained XP and loot. Now it's not, quite frankly you could say that this system encourages you to do no more than the main quest line because really, who needs the extra junk? Why even bother to look for more cool stuff I could gain when it will just be worthless weight?.. The disussion is of course over the current version of underrail, what is wrong and right with it and how can it be made better. Obviously i'll push for anything that will make it better.
Last you go on exagerating things to prove a point which doesn't really helps. I still am right when I say that somethings must make a gammy sense because a real world sense hurt the game... Do you want the game to be a real life simulator? I belive that for that, I can just live my own life and quite frankly, I'd get the same experiences. A game is supposed to be fun, not have overly annoying and frustating mechanics that only waste everyone's time or just make the game overall, less enjoyable.
I don't have a problem with you liking the new economy. If you like being able to just go at it while not really having to search everything, exploring, really give much of a crap about anything and just get to the end in a blitz, that's your perrogative. Personally I prefer a game that will reward me for going out of the way to find more loot and doing more quest and explore every little bit of the map.
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Oh so i see, crafting traps has no flaw other than the fact that allows you to craft traps.
Now it's not, quite frankly you could say that this system encourages you to do no more than the main quest line because really, who needs the extra junk? Why even bother to look for more cool stuff I could gain when it will just be worthless weight?.. The disussion is of course over the current version of underrail, what is wrong and right with it and how can it be made better. Obviously i'll push for anything that will make it better.
Only if you are a power gamer. I enjoy searching every area and doing every quest i can find. Just because someone doesn't bring everything that isn't glued to the ground with him doesn't mean that he doesn't like to explore.
Obviously i'll push for anything that will make it better.
Objectively, no you wont. You will push it towards what you find to be more fun. And that's quite okay, but even if fun can be objectively defined (something that is amusing or enjoyable : an enjoyable experience) its is very subjective since it depends on the subject. What might be fun to some might not be fun to another.
Last you go on exagerating things to prove a point which doesn't really helps. I still am right when I say that somethings must make a gammy sense because a real world sense hurt the game... Do you want the game to be a real life simulator? I belive that for that, I can just live my own life and quite frankly, I'd get the same experiences. A game is supposed to be fun, not have overly annoying and frustating mechanics that only waste everyone's time or just make the game overall, less enjoyable.
I beg to differ. You are the one who seems to be quite found of ad absurdum fallacies. Those examples i presented are hardly exaggerations since they are common in many computer games including successful (and some less successful) rpgs. Exaggerations is when you say that crafting is useless, or when you misuse the word never, or when you state that the game is no longer objectively fun because there is a weight limit and vendors no longer buy everything you picked, even though you get much more cash than in previous versions where these restrictions didn't take place.
Harebrained Schemes exaggerate when they created Shadow Run?
Do you want the game to be a real life simulator?
Hum, no. Is that the difference between having vendors buying everything you want and vendors that have specific needs?
I belive that for that, I can just live my own life and quite frankly, I'd get the same experiences.
Do you mean that you constantly struggle with the weight of firearms when you go on your way to sell them on real life? Are you an arms dealer? Your life sounds exciting!
I don't have a problem with you liking the new economy. If you like being able to just go at it while not really having to search everything, exploring, really give much of a crap about anything and just get to the end in a blitz, that's your perrogative. Personally I prefer a game that will reward me for going out of the way to find more loot and doing more quest and explore every little bit of the map.
But why do you assume that i rush through the game. Exploring the whole map and bringing everything with you while you do it are two separate things, and believe it or not, they can exist without each other.
Sorry for keeping pushing you, over and over.
I like to argue and its quite beneficial in my line of work to keep at it if only to get better.
Its quite hard for me to resist replying when opinions are stated as facts, or when fallacies are introduced.
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Don't worry, I also like to argue.
Crafting traps has no flaw, other than traps not being worth it. A proper grenade or caltrops well thrown are much more effective than a single bear trap or a mine. Not only are they more effective, they also don't have a hard setup requirement which needs you to have and incredibly high stealth value to be able to be next to enemies and lay down traps without them seeying you... Granted i'll grant you a point that the problem lays on the traps and not the crafting system itself, the crating system is flawed when it comes to weapons/armor mostly for reasons I explained before.
I also enjoy going everywhere, exploring everything, but if I am not rewarded for doing that then why am I bothering myself to do so? Why should I go explore that cave that has nothing of interest?... This in fact goes back to one of my original complaints about the GMS burrower hive. It was the hardest content possible (at least till the previous patch, I dunno if something more difficult appeared) and yet what was the reward for going there? Absolutly nothing, maybe a few part and a dead body at the end with nothing of value... Really? That encourages reward? Where is the factor of risk reward too? I did it once in my playthroughs... Never again did I bother to do it. Pretty simple, it was a waste of time that place... Exploring another cave or facillity just for the fun of exploring. Quite frankly, it's more scenary like I've seen previously and more enemies the like I've killed many times before, if I'm doing it, something must provide the fun for me to do it. That is get better stuff or at least get worse stuff that I'll be able to sell in order to buy better stuff... Also don't throw the word power gamer like if it was a bad thing. Some people like to play just to suffer through a game, heck you've got people who play those platformers that are so insanely hard they are only meant to drive you crazy. Similarly there are people who like to play games in a way that they get much more powerful and are able to do more. That is called character developement and it's very important in the enjoyment of the game.
And while you can say that this makes the game better I'm sure that if you were to ask to most people who liked old school RPGs they wouldn't like this. We are but a minory here in the foruns. A game doesn't has to be fun for everyone, but it shouldn't include mechanics that the majority doesn't likes. If you ask all RPGers if they like mechanics that will waste their time, what do you think the answer is?.. Yes sure you can say that you don't need the loot or whatever but that detracts from the experience since it removes the reward for doing something and as such makes not want to waste the time... Still it is quite possible to just make it so that you adjust whether or not you want these system by a simple checkbox in the start game asking whether or not you want weight limits or merchants. In fact it would be an educative experience if this had a way to just send back information of how did players chose to make their playthrough. It would then be similarly fun to see a detailed statistics of whether there was more plays with those mechanics or without as well as how many new games and in which system each player played.
I didn't say crafting was useless, I said mostly useless. There are exceptions though they are so very few. Grenades are the true exception to the rule... There was a minimal exception before that was. You can make more money out of crafting cause you can use the components to just make stuff that you won't need and sell... point that is now moot. Thus I say, crafting is now even more useless... also I'm not going to talk about shadowrun, I haven't played but the only 2 problems I've heard about the game is that it's linear rather than open world as it should have been as well as your class and race matering not, all that matters is picking guns as the main combat skill cause it is completly overpowered when compared to everything else... Again I'm in no position to judge as I don't own the game.
In the real world you deal with supply and demand, but why would that need to sweep into a game? Why would a game have you bother to deal with it if that serves no practical purpose other than A) lose money for no good reason. B) lose so much time that completly kills the want to play the game in order to sell items?
Then you go on exagerating. Obviously I'm not a weapon smuggler though I agree my life would probably be a lot more fun and I'd probably have much more money too... But if I want to bother with such things as what people buy and sell, the fluctuations of market in supply and demand quite frankly the real world has a lot of that on many types of buisness (many of them legal too)... the point is that the game is not a live sim, it can perfectly deal without mechanics that will just make the game worse.
And no, I don't assume you rush through the game, that was merely a statement to drive the point across. You can be just running around, looking at everything and getting nothing in return. It's your time after all. There was all those guys mining that curiosity cube for god knows how long. It wasn't anything more than an absolute waste of time but hey, it was their time, if that keeps them entertained.
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Don't worry, I also like to argue.
Phew, i am glad you do.
About the trap vs grenades. For me the biggest advantage is that traps are much more stealth friendly, and you can also use them with grenades. After playing the game for a while the enemy pathfinding becomes a little more predictable so i have a easy time placing them. Its also very common to see mine blasts hitting more than one enemy. Even better traps explosions can trip other traps for more fun.
I also enjoy going everywhere, exploring everything, but if I am not rewarded for doing that then why am I bothering myself to do so? Why should I go explore that cave that has nothing of interest?...
Exploration should indeed be rewarded either with information or with nice loot. I know you don't like it but the oddity system rewards exploration. Now the problem with the lack of reward isn't tied down to the economy restrictions, but the lack of exotic items.
And while you can say that this makes the game better I'm sure that if you were to ask to most people who liked old school RPGs they wouldn't like this. We are but a minory here in the foruns. A game doesn't has to be fun for everyone, but it shouldn't include mechanics that the majority doesn't likes. If you ask all RPGers if they like mechanics that will waste their time, what do you think the answer is?..
Most people i know like this sort of stuff. This game isn't being crafted to please the majority, if it was we would have a RTwP combat and romanceable NPCs. I am supposing that this is what the majority wants. And this mechanics are not designed to waste peoples time. Some people chose to waste their own time without any need to.
Much more annoying to me is a broken economy, and i don't know who else feels this way. I really don't know how many people like this or that, but i do know what i do like. I have seen games designed for the masses for years and i hated them. I am very happy that now with the indie movement i am being showered by games with exactly everything i like.
Sorry i don't mean that power gamer is a bad thing, i just think that a game should not be designed around a power gamer.
Picking just the most profitable solution is not what i find fun about RPGs. But that's me.
Yes sure you can say that you don't need the loot or whatever but that detracts from the experience since it removes the reward for doing something and as such makes not want to waste the time...
If i am at maximum capacity and i find a neat item that is a little heavy, i drop some stuff and take that one with me instead.
I didn't say crafting was useless, I said mostly useless.
Oh sorry really thought you did.
About Shadowrun, yes it has those flaws. I guess the whole point of the game was to be something like NWN. The OC would be just a demonstration and the power would be in the editor and fan made content, but so far it hasn't been great on that end.
In the real world you deal with supply and demand, but why would that need to sweep into a game? Why would a game have you bother to deal with it if that serves no practical purpose other than A) lose money for no good reason. B) lose so much time that completly kills the want to play the game in order to sell items?
But you have to understand why Styg added this. Its not to make underrail a simulation of real life tradings. Its just a game mechanic to avoid the economy breaking too soon, and becoming a meaningless aspect of the game. In my opinion, that's a very good reason.
The time you lose is due to your own decision. The game doesn't force you to do that, nor does it reward you. Yet you do. Let it go. Try it. Be free and let it go.
Then you go on exagerating. Obviously I'm not a weapon smuggler though I agree my life would probably be a lot more fun and I'd probably have much more money too...
And aren't you glad that i did? Also i am not sure that its obvious that you are not a gun smuggler.
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Yeah but I look at it from this angle. If I have say, a mk5 grenade, or maybe even an mk4. I throw it, everything in the blast radius dies. Why would it make sense to have to go to all the trouble of burrowing mines to set chains of explosions when there is little benefict to it and in some cases can be a major pain cause your stealth might just not be enough? Grenades and caltrops really solve issues as far as traps and explosives are concerned, they are of much more convinient and easier use... If anything caltrops has the problem oof maybe you needing to pass through the place where you threw them in but well, nothing is perfect and after combat a little bit of damage when there is no more enemies is hardly a problem.
I don't belive the oddity system rewards exploration and this is my reasoning... The GMS burrower hive is currently worth only a little bit of XP. Now if the classic system doing that is not worth just for the XP, why would it be in the oddity when at the end, you stand to gain the same? I do understand that using oddity that is the only way to gain XP but even then that isn't nearly enough to merit going in.
I do not say a game should be made according to what the vast majority thinks about everything, otherwise I'd agree this would end up as a pretty generic RPG. But even then there are certain aspects, especially when it comes to mechanics, that are incredibly important and that are popular simply because they are good and because they work well.
If you really think the economy was broken then I am sorry, but you should by your own words despise it now. The game economy is even more broken, before it was hard to have any money before a good deal into the junkyard. Now, you are leaving the first quest with a lot more money and cheaper stuff to buy, durabillities are higher and things degrade slightly slower... it is true I can't bring everything with me and sell everything, but even if I don't I still have it a lot easier. By all accounts the economy is a lot more broken than it used to be but you know what? The economy had only one problem before and that was that the beggining have way too expensive ammo... the reason why economy wasn't broken before in the first place was because it was just a simple matter of maintaining the balance that existed previously. You leave the SGS for the junkyard thinking. I have a lot of money. You get there and you see that no, you really don't have a lot of money, you won't even have enough to buy a new armor or a new gun. Now junkyard should set you to leave to a new area where the cost of the items on the new area will allow you to just buy one item despite it looking like it's a lot... it's only a log in the current area but not the next. Then the game should proceed like that, what seams like a lot is only a lot in your current area, when you leave it it's not really that much. Simple balance archieved in the economy without a need for gymmics like carry weights and merchant limits.
The time I would lose (I don't because I won't play only to lose my time, that would make me hate the game and never touch it again) may be of my own decision, but it comes from the only way i'll derive fun from the game. If I can't do it that way, if I have to leave stuff behind then I won't derive fun from the game, just as wasting days selling stuff. As I belive we can all agree that the reason to play a game is to have fun, I'd just not have a reason to play a game if I played it the way you are sugesting me to.
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It is possible that the traps may have been made a lot better. I know Styg planned to make the required mats for them lower cause it had no sense they were double the amoung of the stardard grenade version so at least that I expected but unless some changes were made to the works of traps I still don't find them very reliable. The ones that are really required for enemies to step on them like bear traps will be a pain. This is my previous experience so by all means it could have changed but 4 out of 5 times they would go around the trap on the ground as if they could see it, even when I had tested their pathing and knew exactly which squares they'd move through.
As for whether or not grenades are OP... I don't think so. I think they are just about right to allow you to survive the majority of the fights. I am absolutly sure that if I didn't had mk5 or at very least mk4 in the junkyard to deal with the dogs and mutants on my non psi character. My chances would have been nil... I am not so sure the changes to the grenade crafting skill requirements were a good thing... Maybe they needed to be upped a little, but I'm fairly confident that at very least mk4 is needed for depot A... And that is not enough to deal with the mutants but if at least it kills the dogs (which mk4 are not guaranteed too... Then maybe it's good enough.
Now theoricly, a trapper could be a good build, I say theoricly because I haven't had a decent trapper experience so far and I think that to do a propper trapper I'll need a very high stealth value and a high intelligence value so I'm not so sure I'm willing to make a character that rellies purelly on spending a lot of time setting up each and every fight... takes a bit too much time. Still I can see how it could be good, but I still consider grenades and caltrops to be a much superior alternative.
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There was a lot said about Psi, that was a nonsence of such kind, that first I want to use word "bulshit" instead.
I'll post about my experience in Suggestion.