Underrail Forum
Underrail => Development Log => Topic started by: Styg on January 12, 2014, 02:34:25 pm
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The new version is complete and the build is running as I type this. Tomorrow we'll be starting the internal testing so you can expect the new patch to go live sometime next week. In the meantime, I want to present you with an alternative experience system I implemented and the reasoning behind it.
(http://www.underrail.com/images/DevLog/NewGameOptions.jpg)
Before we even begin I want to make it clear that, even though I consider the new system to be the "default" way to play the game, the old system is still available for those who prefer it. Upon starting a new game you will be able to choose which experience system you want to use and you can also choose between easy and normal difficulty. On easy difficulty player character will have twice the health and the healing consumables will heal for twice as much and have a lower cooldown.
With this change, I'm only trying to re-balance the experience economy and not anything else regarding the character progression. The experience economy concerns the way the player gain experience and how does that affect his character build and play-style.
Since the early development phase of the game I was set on the game utilizing this old-school linear level/skill progression system. I'm fond of this kind of system and I had a pretty good idea how I would handle various combat calculations within it. What I never liked about it, though, is how the games that implement it handle experience gains. The problem is similar to that presented in the previous dev log in regards to the trading economy. Most of experience you gain by completing quests and killing enemies. So in order to get as much XP as possible and progress through levels as fast as possible, the player is encouraged to resolve most situations by combat. With Underrail being a challenging game as it is, there exists a very real need for the player to maximize their power level at any stage of the game.
One of tweaks I did in the past of ease this up a bit was to increase the XP gain from quests and reduce the XP gain from kills. It did help a bit, but in a game which involves a lot of combat you'd really have to go to the extremes when shifting the XP gains (from kills to quests) before they actually change the nature of level progression. Otherwise, it will still be heavily based on XP from kills, you'll just slow the progression down. You could go to one extreme and say, let's only award XP for quest completion. This is one way to go about it, and certainly some games have utilized this or something similar. I personally I don't like, though. I find it a mostly boring and non-dynamic way to progress and it also encourages you to complete as many quests as possible, instead of just those you want. In my opinion, you should only have to do quests that progress the story (or alter the game world) in the way you want or have other in-game rewards you desire, and not because it's the only way to become more powerful. For me, playing RPGs is about making choices based on preferences. Anything that limits this is bad.
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What I wanted to do is reward player with experience for exploring Underrail, fighting new types of creatures (as opposed to farming easy ones) and just generally discovering and experiences more of the game world. Without them having to make optimal combat builds or finish the quest branch that gives the most experience.
(http://www.underrail.com/images/DevLog/ProtectoratePropaganda.jpg)
The way the new experience system works is you only get experience from collecting and studying "oddity" items. These items are scattered throughout Underrail, mostly at points of interest. Some of them are gained by killing critters and other specific types of enemies, but since each oddity item can be studied a limited number of times, you can only farm XP from a single creature type to a certain point. Also, there are generally more instances of an oddity item type placed than you need, so you don't have to have 100% exploration score to get them all. Though, some of them will be unique and only awarded for discovering special areas or defeating bosses.
The main purpose of this system is to allow players to level at a similar rate regardless of what their build and play-style is. Going through the world stealthily, guns blazing (or in some cases diplomatically) or anything in between should now earn you similar amount of experience. People who build their characters better to their respective play styles will still naturally have an easier time and be able to venture to more dangerous areas. They will still do better than those who are still getting the hang of the game - the purpose of this is not to make the game easier, just more inclusive for different play-styles.
For those who like to race ahead of the difficulty curve and like to visit higher level areas early to amass experience quickly, let me assure you that the purpose of this system is not to prevent that either. Higher level areas will hold oddity items that give more experience, so skipping ahead to those will still accelerate your leveling, though admittedly not as much as the previous system.
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So, in any case, the new update is coming soon and you'll all be able to check out all these major changes and let me know how it's working out for you. Our focus in the months to come will remain on providing more content to the game and less so on new mechanics, but I am still dedicated to making this game as mechanically and economically sound as possible, as I feel this is just as important.
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The main purpose of this system is to allow players to level at a similar rate regardless of what their build and play-style is. Going through the world stealthily, guns blazing (or in some cases diplomatically) or anything in between should now earn you similar amount of experience. People who build their characters better to their respective play styles will still naturally have an easier time and be able to venture to more dangerous areas. They will still do better than those who are still getting the hang of the game - the purpose of this is not to make the game easier, just more inclusive for different play-styles.
Great call, Styg. Getting xp through kill may motivate us to pick the less pacific action not because of role-play reasons but because its more rewarding. Now, M'lan Ratula and his children might have a chance to survive.
Back at the old nwn, i liked to play a stealthy ranger. It was fun to complete a quest without
killing almost anyone, just sneaking by.
But i felt like i was handicapping myself. Without kills i was getting less xp by sneaking past
them and since i played ranger i didn't get any sneak attacks or any other benefit.
Just two questions.
Some of these oddities are going to be rewarded for completing quests?
Are there going to be oddities in locked containers?
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Just two questions.
Some of these oddities are going to be rewarded for completing quests?
Are there going to be oddities in locked containers?
Oddities will not be granted directly for quest completion, though quest-accessed areas might contain oddities.
No oddity will be exclusively obtained through usages of specific skill (like lockpicking). Though there might be a few oddities in locked containers or rooms, they will also be placed elsewhere so you will be able to obtain the maximum number of that type without lockpicking and such.
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Dear Styg,
You are a genius.
Banggunner
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Now this is an interesting idea.
Kudos.
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Sounds good but gotta play it first to have a feel about this new type of leveling system.
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Is the EXP requirement accumulative or is it always the same amount of EXP requirement to lvl?
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Is the EXP requirement accumulative or is it always the same amount of EXP requirement to lvl?
It steadily increases like in the classic system.
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The mmo Haven & Hearth has a curiosity system thats some what similar to this.
It was a welcome change because it removed grinding completly from the game.
Its also free so check it out.
Getting xp only through quests is a nice system aswell. Many nwn modules took this route.
But i guess it does not reward exploration as much as the oddity system.
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The mmo Haven & Hearth has a curiosity system thats some what similar to this.
It was a welcome change because it removed grinding completly from the game.
Its also free so check it out.
Getting xp only through quests is a nice system aswell. Many nwn modules took this route.
But i guess it does not reward exploration as much as the oddity system.
I have played H&H a bit and Salem extensively so this system is indeed partially inspired by those games. Though Underrail is much simpler in that regard since it has a linear skill progression and singular progression input (XP).
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I think the new XP system sounds most intriguing.
I do have a problem with RPGs that are basically either action or strategy combat games that only differ from non-rpgs by employing character progression and having a stronger emphasis on story-telling, possibly with some choices for the player to make. In those games the only "roles" you can play are combat roles like tank, dps, control and such. Of course combat is always a fun aspect of RPGs, but it's usually not the one that makes them stand out. I liked Fallout (1+2) for the different approaches to solving a single problem. And it does feel, at least at the moment, that in Underrail combat is the most rewarding solution to all problems. I actually found myself trying to deal the killing blow to enemies, I had set up to be gunned down by a turret, to gain more XP. I also tend to take every quest even from opposing sites to gain more XP. And I always felt I needed more and more XP because I found the combat to be brutally difficult (I went for combat with guns with high perception and almost no survivability). Initiative will hopefully alleviate some of the problems with combat following a dialogue (no chance of survival when 6 enemies attack you before you even draw your gun). And the easy setting is also much appreciated.
The difficult combat, that I managed mostly by restarting fights repeatedly until I got in that perfect grenade and some good crits, actually lead to my stopping to play the game just shortly before it's current end. I'm already looking forward to starting a new character with a different approach once the new patch is out. Hopefully I'll even get to the new areas ^^
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Regarding the difficulty, wouldn't it be better to just increase the health by 50% and then grant an extra 50% based on the health that an average character has?
If you go for a stealth sniper, going easy mode or not will not drastically change your survivability given the low base health.
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Will some oddities be gained exclusively through quests? If not, then what's the point of doing them? Are you planning on increasing the reward for quests? because the main reason I did quests was to gain EXP and with the new system I don't see any reasons to do them other than simply just "want to".
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]because the main reason I did quests was to gain EXP and with the new system I don't see any reasons to do them other than simply just "want to".
Quest rewards (like cash) could be another reason to do quests and I guess you will have to play the storyline too to complete the game right. Also, in games (for example) like fallout there are tons of quest. Do you have to finish them all? No, its all about choice. Like the fish quest, I ain't got the patience to fish like Morde. He is a hardcore fisherman, he wouldn't leave his rod even if was attacked by 4 burrowers!
(and I know this isn't fallout but more choice is more fun!)
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Regarding the difficulty, wouldn't it be better to just increase the health by 50% and then grant an extra 50% based on the health that an average character has?
If you go for a stealth sniper, going easy mode or not will not drastically change your survivability given the low base health.
This is true. What I might do in the future is also reduce enemy health on easy mode.
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Will some oddities be gained exclusively through quests? If not, then what's the point of doing them? Are you planning on increasing the reward for quests? because the main reason I did quests was to gain EXP and with the new system I don't see any reasons to do them other than simply just "want to".
I'll have to quote myself here, because I really can't think of a better way to put it:
In my opinion, you should only have to do quests that progress the story (or alter the game world) in the way you want or have other in-game rewards you desire, and not because it's the only way to become more powerful.
And this is really not a novel concept at all. Think of the games from The Elder Scrolls series for example. Quests there don't award experience or anything similar, just material rewards and story progression, yet most people still finish a lot of quests in that game.
Like Banggunner suggested, you shouldn't be forced to do the quests just because they are an integral part of character leveling. If something is not fun for you, you should be able to skip it for the most part.
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Most quests in The Elder Scrolls are built so that you use your skills within the quest and thus you lvl your character either way, be it your weapon skills or speechcraft etc. But I hear ya, I think it's an interesting idea, I'm just a little worried is all. :P
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Quite frankly I'm not a fan of this specifical experience system since to me it makes no sense that killing enemies and completing quests do not award XP . I can understand what you are trying to do but I find this option less optimal than the classic way of XP... Still, the classic way to earn XP is still there as an option so it's all cool because it's an option and having options is good.
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Maybe add an exponential requirement progression system where you can gain up to +5 on a limited amount of skills you use very often?
Nontheless, I'm intrigued to try it before I really judge. :)
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Quite frankly I'm not a fan of this specifical experience system since to me it makes no sense that killing enemies and completing quests do not award XP .
Elhazzard, but you have to accept as well that the classic xp system makes less sense. Your character shouldn't become better at arming traps by shooting rathounds in the face and delivering documents. Helping an old lady crossing the street should be no substitute of doing your maths homework .
I gave it a try today and the game didn't felt much different. But then again i was already familiar with this system.
As long as the oddities are objects that can provide useful skills and information to the character, i am quite happy with it. I just don't know how much i can learn from a chewing toy. :P
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Quite frankly I'm not a fan of this specifical experience system since to me it makes no sense that killing enemies and completing quests do not award XP .
Elhazzard, but you have to accept as well that the classic xp system makes less sense. Your character shouldn't become better at arming traps by shooting rathounds in the face and delivering documents. Helping an old lady crossing the street should be no substitute of doing your maths homework .
I gave it a try today and the game didn't felt much different. But then again i was already familiar with this system.
As long as the oddities are objects that can provide useful skills and information to the character, i am quite happy with it. I just don't know how much i can learn from a chewing toy. :P
Similarly, it doesn't makes sense you can kill stuff better by researching an item... I understand what is trying to be done here and again, I don't really mind the system so long as it's optional. but I feel this system is much worse and much more contrived than the classic system. I also understand that it's rather hard to make up a system that would make 100% sense otherwise you'd only get good at something by doing that something. You'd need a system where ratehr than gaining XP to level up and distribute points, you'd need a system that would award XP to specific skills as you use them. The problem then becomes that you could just be amazing at everything.
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Similarly, it doesn't makes sense you can kill stuff better by researching an item... I understand what is trying to be done here and again, I don't really mind the system so long as it's optional. but I feel this system is much worse and much more contrived than the classic system. I also understand that it's rather hard to make up a system that would make 100% sense otherwise you'd only get good at something by doing that something. You'd need a system where ratehr than gaining XP to level up and distribute points, you'd need a system that would award XP to specific skills as you use them. The problem then becomes that you could just be amazing at everything.
Unless you train, like in good ol' Gothic. I really liked the XP system in that game. If you're not familiar, it basically did so that you gain XP from doing various things, like killing enemies and doing quests etc. But instead of traditional XP you gain "training points" that you spend to learn new stuff from trainers around the game world. Be it increasing a skill or attribute or learning new tricks within a skill or a whole new ability.
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My biggest worry about the new system is that it feels like a compromise rather than catering to different playstyles. Because it boils everything down to treasure huntering to power up your character and in lots of ways that doesn't feel very adventurous. Right now, I don't feel like I'm making personal progress because I'm not getting better at what I do by doing it or by actually exploring the world in a natural sense. Let me explain:
Before, you could gain experience in a number of ways including killing stuff, picking locks, disarming traps, doing quests etc. I felt like I gained XP from activities and that what I was doing actually meant something for my personal character, even if I could put those points I earned through killing things to mind control, it still felt like I was rewarded by my actions and that they strenghened me, it felt meaningful to pick locks, it felt meaningful to overcome a hard battle or successfuly persuade a character.
In the current system, I don't feel like I'm making personal progress in the same way, it's more like a treasure hunt (like I said above) and when I have all the pieces of the map I somehow get better at the stuff I do when I'm not treasure hunting. It feels wrong, it feels artificial, and that's what I mean when I say it feels like a compromise. It doesn't really cater to all playstyles, it more or less cripple the whole experience for all playstyles in order for some to work.
That's basically how I feel about the new system, it's a good thing that you can choose between classic and oddity, I really do prefer the classic XP gain style.
Feel.. feel, sounds weird now after som many times :o
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I am also glad we can still pick the classic system. When i first saw the update i thought i was not even going to touch it.
But then i remembered that i had a previous experience with it, and that most things that i dislike on the old system wouldn't be present.
[Similarly, it doesn't makes sense you can kill stuff better by researching an item...
Yes, you are right it does not. Unless its a gun's manual or something...
Before, you could gain experience in a number of ways including killing stuff, picking locks, disarming traps, doing quests etc. I felt like I gained XP from activities and that what I was doing actually meant something for my personal character
I guess my biggest gripe with the classic system is regarding the lack of reward for playing a stealthy character.
I was sneaking through the whole junkyard and getting zero of XP from it.
Give this system a try with a stealth character, it might feel more rewarding.
I get what both of you are saying because i feel it to, to some degree. But i still prefer this system because it rewards
stealthy and diplomatic approaches with equality and discourages of doing unnecessary actions just to farm for xp.
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I think the best way to utilize the choice of XP system is to simply pick Oddity for stealth and speech characters and classic for all other playstyles, oddity doesn't work for any other than the two passive playstyles.
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The oddity system is not meant to simulate the real life studying and skill increasing more accurately than the classic. They are both abstract and gamey and can never be anything else as long as there's a single input for power progression - XP.
The purpose is, as I stated multiple times, to remove the need to kill for the sake of getting experience and progressing in levels.
And killing is the way you get most of your XP in the classic system and that forces the player to adapt a certain attitude towards the game and threat it as a zoo of enemies to be slaughtered. I'm completely fine with people playing the game that way, that's why the classic system is there.
But for those who don't want to spend the time clearing out this zoo and like to pick and choose their battles and take a more meaningful approach to challenges than "kill everything" the new system is there to provide them with equal experience.
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I guess what I'm trying to say it that the neither of the XP systems should be treated as "standard" or default, because one XP system is better for certain playstyles than the other, and vice versa. The oddity system is disengaging and unadventurous for combat style characters while the classic system is unrewarding for passive players. No system is perfect, I understand that and I'm not asking for a perfect system, it's more or less the way the game treats the system that I have a slight problem with.
New players that are getting into the game and play the game "the way it's meant to be played" will pick oddity system and most likely find their choice of activity disengaging and unrewarding if they choose to play an aggressive playstyle.
I'm not trying to bash the new system, I'm laying out the potential problems it can cause down the line and explaining my experience and thoughts about it. And while the system is not supposed to be realistic my view on it is that getting better is one of the main goal of the game (because that's the way you gain access to new content traditionally) and when the activities that you choose to participate in don't progress your character, it disengages me and I spend more time collecting oddities to progress than actually doing stuff I like.
What I mean is that this system doesn't really reward all playstyles but it feels like an easy solution to another problem. And that problem is that passive playstyles don't get rewarded enough in classic, so instead of creating mechanics and reward stealthy players for their stealth playstyle (or diplomatic), the oddity system simply paint it over with a one-dimensional XP gain system that all playstyles benefit from, and from a single activity no less, without actually utilizing their playstyle, see where I'm coming from?
And I don't really know if killing stuff was the primary way to gain XP for me, it was quests (and lockpicking/hacking), killing was a part of XP gain yes but it never felt like I was required to kill stuff to progress. And I played primarily stealth characters.