Underrail Forum
Underrail => Development Log => Topic started by: Styg on December 24, 2013, 11:08:16 am
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The level design is mostly complete for the new areas, but there's still some scripting and lots of dialog to be done, so it'll be a couple more weeks. Alongside working on the new content, I'm also doing major re-balancing of some game mechanics in order to improve the game economy, both in monetary sense and in other aspects. I'm going to talk about the former now and we'll leave the latter for another dev log.
(http://www.underrail.com/images/DevLog/NewTradingSystem.jpg)
The first big change I made is I limited the type and amount of goods merchants are willing to buy from you. Merchants will now only buy certain type of goods depending on what their store deals in and they will require only a certain amount of each, with exception of certain goods they will always be looking to buy (such as bullets for example). The type and amount of goods they require at the moment is randomly selected from that merchant's "market demand table" so to speak and it's reset every time the merchant restocks their inventory (typically every 90 minutes). So you will no longed be able to sell all the junk you hauled from your latest raid to the first merchant you see.
And speaking of hauling junk, I've also implemented item weight system. You'll get the progressively higher movement speed and movement point penalties the more you carry above your capacity and if you carry way too much you will actually get rooted into place. This is something I've put off implementing for quite some time because I wasn't sure it'll actually add any value to the game. I dislike these mechanics in most RPGs, especially the party-based ones because more often than not they only result in more inventory management chores without having (or needing to have) much impact on the game economy. But in certain games where exploring and scavenging are the main concepts of the game and where economy actually matters, and I believe Underrail to be such a game, I feel that liming the player inventory in some way (either through weight or space) is beneficial to the overall gameplay experience.
And finally, to go along with these changes, I've reduced the price multiplier when purchasing items. I'ts currently at 175% (down from 350%), but might change further by the time the update is ready depending on how it works out when I get the time to do a real playthrough. I've also reduced the item durability penalty to its cost and have increased the durability range of items looted from corpses (they won't be near broken all the time now).
So why all these changes? Well here's my take on it.
The way the economy works in the live version of the game is like this: loot everything, get every piece of junk. No matter if you need it for crafting or not, no matter the price, just as long as it can be sold - pick it up (basically always hit "loot all" on every container). The more people you kill, more loot you get which directly translates into more wealth so you're always encouraged to handle every situation by killing as many as possible. And if you do not play like this you will get way less loot, and because the merchant prices and item durability penalties are balanced more towards this "optimal playstyle", you can easily run into money problems.
In the new system, you'll only want to hold onto the valuable stuff and the stuff you actually need (for crafting or consumption) because you can carry a limited amount and because can only sell so much in a given time frame. You might wonder won't the weight system just encourage power gamers to make multiple trips to a dungeon to get all the stuff out and store it somewhere to be sold later when the market demand resets? Well, they can do that, yes, and it will work to a degree, but in the time it takes to make multiple trips to the same (possibly remote) place you can do more fun stuff such as exploring new areas, doing new quests, gaining XP and by doing this, you will also get new loot to sell for when the merchants reset.
There will still be more efficient and less efficient ways to make money - it is not my intention to try to prevent that. Accumulating wealth is one form of power gaming and for a lot of people power gaming is one of the major motivations for playing RPGs. I believe this new system will be more fun to play with for everyone. People who want to get as much money as possible will now try to find the most expensive stuff to sell as opposed to as much stuff, while those who take the more casual approach to the economy won't be left hopelessly behind either just as long as they scavenge intelligently.
In any case, let me know how you guys feel about these changes.
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Do not underestimate the power of loot. I for one cannot allow one single piece of loot left around for the dust to make their home. Anyway. I like what you are planning right now because for me i hate unlimited inventory space.
Good work on the progress, have a nice Christmas and New Year.
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Looking good! I really like to loot stuff, but as long as the overall value of looted stuff is average/high + there is enough loot to loot (at the moment there isn't that much but as announced in previous dev.logs that will change in the next patch), I won't mind leaving some loot behind. Also extending the durability time on equipment and reducing the price multiplier will make up for leaving my precious loot behind.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year everyone ;)
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I would rather prefer some side quests which requires absurd amount of cash as solution to excess money (so hoarding money would make sense) or maybe ordering custom gear from merchants? Maybe even some high level robbers who will follow you around if you start to make huge amount of money from the loot and carrying cash with you... forcing you to either hand over most of your money or get killed (or stash your money and loot somewhere and go back for it when needed). ;D
Instead of merchants refusing to take same type of loot the price should drastically drop for each extra item making it pointless to sell it but if you want to get rid off it quickly for some reason... basics of market economy. :D
Maybe option of buying store from some merchant in financial trouble (tons of extra cash gone) and then using it to sell loot you gather (via merchant who now works for you) but that would naturally be a slow process and you get small amount of money from time to time (what is left after paying salaries to merchant, store guard(s), loot quality and quantity you offer = more quality loot more money...) but in total more then selling directly to merchants.
This way you get yourself nice storage facility in which you can set which items you want to sell (aka selling shelves which you stock with your loot and won't get shot by guard if you take something back ;) ) and which items you want to buy (buying shelves on which you place money you want to spend and single piece of items you want to get i.e. 12,7mm round and in few days money is gone and some rounds "magically" appear which you can collect or just add more money) or just store for later (classic storage shelves in separate room), also some expensive item could appear from time to time which is being offered to you (either via merchant or special shelves).
Maybe even option of expanding store with repair shop (which naturally costs tons of cash) but you get repairman and shelves on which you place items you want to recycled and items you want to be repaired (which you can pick up fully repaired in a few days)... this would solve need for recycle en masse and lot of micromanaging with recycle and repair after early game and player had lots of money and loot.
But as long as feature is added allowing us to recycle items en masse it shouldn't be a problem, one of the main reasons for gathering tons of crappy lot is to convert it to repair kits, also if any junk left behind never disappears I have no problem with multiple trips (few extra containers to store excess lot in one place wouldn't hurt)
Limiting inventory size (instead of just weight which can be carried without penalties) would be bad since that one is always a nightmare to work with.
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I like all the changes except one. Limiting what the merchants buy I think is fine but limiting the amount I think is a little too extreme. An alternative that I don't think would be too extreme and still retain some exclusivity would be to brand certain shops and have them always be willing to buy an amount of those. If not that then bonus money for what the shops are currently looking for but are still willing to buy other things within its type.
For instance have certain shops have labels (seen or unseen) for instance medicine shop, tool shop, weapon shop, armor shop, weapon/armor shop, item shop, general store, etc. make anywhere between 5-10 shop 'types' and have them willing to buy whatever is in their type with no limits. For example a weapon shop will buy anything classified as a weapon but will pay more for what they have in demand. This I think will also pander to the economist who only wants to sell things at top value to hold on to their items until shops have them in high demand.
I think this will be a restriction that isn't too severe but will still have limitations in place and give extra incentive to hang on to things for people who want to get the best prices available but the cost in doing this means they will have to manage their inventory better also with weight limits and such.
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Great, awaited, changes Styg.
Looting and shopping will feel much more rewarding from now on.
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I really dont like a weight system. I hated it in Fallout 3, when i was slow as f**k when i picked up too much stuff from the envirement. It destroyed a lot of fun and i spend most of the time carrying things from one place to another to get them all. it happend alot that i earned more heavy weapons from a mass fight than i could carry with me and it was stressfull and annoying bs to walk like 20-30 minutes back to the "homebase" several times to get everything.
please delete this feature, seriously. its more realistic i know, and i bet you spend hours and hours to develope and attach it into the game, but it will slow the game down and drastically lower the fun in one of the things most of us love to do in underrail: collecting, collecting, collecting, getting every single peace from every single shelve, enemy and so on.
at least make it effect the motion speed less. please. its going to hurt the game alot.
sry for my bad english.
greetings from a german fan
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I like a weight system that rewards you for thinking ahead and only picking up what you need and the most valuable items. With the scavanging nature of Underrail I think it's a very good implementation to only pick up what you really needs and skip the junk or the items that your build don't use. Great changes!
And merry christmas everyone!
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Without a limited inventory you have less choices as a player.
You don't have to chose which items you take with you in mission, neither what items will you loot and neither which items are you going to have to spend your hard earned credits to get. You can bring everything with you, loot everything and buy almost everything you desire.
And to me choices and living with its consequences are the best part of any RPG.
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I understand that developing a viable economy has been a goal for Underrail all along, but you've gone way too far on player restrictions. Here's what we've got so far:
- degrading items (dislike this, but only because I'm going to be spending so much time on the excellent crafting system)
- weight limit (hate this)
- merchants won't buy everything (creates busywork for player, ie. you can get the same end result, sell everything, it just takes more time)
- if you find the right merchant, he will only buy a limited quantity of the few items he actually wants (makes sense at least)
Most games are happy with one of those restrictions. You're bleeding the fun out of looting and turning it into a junkyard management sim. :) Proposed changes:
- Have a "junk man" in each zone who will buy anything you've got, but at 50% of the going rate.
- Make all junk components like scraps of fabric and metal, saw blades, computer parts, empty syringes, worthless to sell. This would make balancing A LOT easier, and will save the OCD gamer from spending 90% of his time staring at his inventory. Probably prevent a couple of suicides too. You'll be saving lives!!
- Get rid of the weight limit. Ugh, I can't decide if I hate that more or having to visit four merchants to clear my inventory. If you have to do something like this, make it a size limit. Then at least we don't have to do the weight/value math in our heads for every worn out pistol and leather armor we pick up.
If you're going to stick with disposable lockpicks (another ugh), can the game auto-select the lowest bonus lockpick to do the job, and also give you an instant result if the lockpick isn't going to work? What would be easier and even better is if we went back to non-disposable lockpicks.
Happy New Year!
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Restrictions (at least in this sense) are one of the things that make games fun for me. They are a part of the game's rules that you need to learn and adapt to, keeping them in mind as you make choices in order for those choices to actually be meaningful.
For those suggesting that merchants should still accept all items but at reduced price - the main idea is not to make your junk less valuable, I could have done that with a couple of lines of code, but instead to force you to loot smarter.
People need to abandon the notion that they need to pick up every item they come across. As LazyMonk suggested, having no limitation on looting and selling means no choice, no involvement from player's side except pressing "loot all". Now, I guess some people are a bit crazy like that and picking up everything that's not nailed down is an actual need, but for an averagely sane person hunting down really valuable equipment and necessary components instead should be more fun (and much more like actual scavenging). Or at least I'd like to think so, we'll see.
Now, as I understand some of you are concerned about HOW restricting this system will be. The actual amount the merchants will buy with each reset and the player's weight limit is something that will be tweaked over time, just like other parameters. The idea is not to make it harder for player to get money or equipment he desires (though for some hoarders that might be the effect). One of the reasons I made these changes is also so I could ease some other restrictions that were (crudely) used to balance the economy, such as merchant price modifiers and damaged items value.
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Yeah, restrictions are absolutely necessary. Unfortunately, you're suggesting that using every type of inventory restriction known to the RPG is the way to go. How many parameters does the player have to consider now when contemplating a single item on the ground?
How much is this worth?
Can I use it for crafting?
If it's useful, can I repair it? Will it cost more to repair than to buy? How about crafting a new one? Maybe I should recycle it.
How much does it weigh? Is its weight:value ratio superior to this other item's weight:value?
Will I be able to sell it? If I know someone who buys guns, will he buy both of these guns?
Am I willing to carry it until I find the merchant who wants it?
Is it worth sacrificing 10% of my Dodge in order to go overweight with it?
This is aside from managing your useful items which are constantly degrading, the number of lockpicks you think you need, your schematics, etc. etc. Players need to make significant decisions, that's what the RPG is all about. In my opinion, too many player decisions are going to be inventory related, to the detriment of the core game. It's too much.
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These changes are going to be in the next version, I guess we have to play it and then decide whether it's excessive or not. I agree that by the sound of it, it feels like the inventory management is a bit out there and not what we are used to but I'd like to try it out and see how it blends together with the rest of the game.
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Some people seem to forget that you also got a room, and I don't know about you guys but I ALWAYS use my room as storage in any RPG. So if you wanna sell something later, store some extra supplies that you can't carry or have some neat amours or guns that are too heavy: USE YOUR ROOM.
And yes, I am the type of guy that locks his room with the keycard after I leave.
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And yes, I am the type of guy that locks his room with the keycard after I leave.
Hahaha, i do that to. Do you also turn down the lights?
I think some of you guys are worrying too much.
You have no idea how this is going to turn out, and you have to keep in mind that it isn't definitive.
Styg is tweaking the game and looking carefully at the feedback he gets with each new tweak.
The first time we had degradable items, they degraded a little too fast. So, Styg tunned it down a little and it now seems quite right.
At least to me.
Have some faith, see how it feels and then report back. I am sure it wont be the inventory nightmare some of you are assuming.
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Some people seem to forget that you also got a room, and I don't know about you guys but I ALWAYS use my room as storage in any RPG. So if you wanna sell something later, store some extra supplies that you can't carry or have some neat amours or guns that are too heavy: USE YOUR ROOM.
And yes, I am the type of guy that locks his room with the keycard after I leave.
Omg, I've never thought about using the room. I've rerolled dozens of characters but I've never thought about using it.
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Aaaaaaaah !
Seriously, better limit the number of slots like said before. It's just horrible to do the maths of "if I take this I can't take that but blablabla". Thinking for hours about how to organize it without moving isn't part of the fun, it's like an annoying job and I must already think about too much stuff when I work, don't want a game that I like to become like this !
Really in Fallout I hated that system. Especially because many items where a great use and I was in the obligation of not having them and when I could have needed them they weren't in my inventory.
For the merchants ok, the need to choose wisely when you go into mission ok.
But the weight, if you're not a strong character you can't sometimes even take with you a big armor you could sell. You can't take anything with you. The weight always depends of strengh and when you play a character with no strengh it's juste impossible to loot and search for things. When you do a sneaky weak character it's also to steal, to open lockers... And that kind of characters can't have anything in their bags !
So please choose just limited slots in the inventory and excuse my english.
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I think it's better than every container containing stuff.
It always bugs me that every damn chest in near everygame seems to be purposefully placed for me to grab it's contents.
Well, it is, but it's too obvious. It's nice to have some empties, though maybe not only.
As for slots, weight, I'm fine with either.
I'd go for an abstract one, with the item taking between 1 and 5 slots, and strength only having a very small effect so you can say it does :P
Ironically, the characters that can carry the most often don't need to.
If a Char has 10 strength, he's probably melee, so less running costs for ammo.
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Some empty containers are fine and dandy, but those empty locked lockers and chests are an awful surprise.
Who bothers to lock an empty chest?
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And yes, I am the type of guy that locks his room with the keycard after I leave.
Hahaha, i do that to. Do you also turn down the lights?
Only the one in the bedroom, the hallway always stays on in my place.
Some empty containers are fine and dandy, but those empty locked lockers and chests are an awful surprise.
Who bothers to lock an empty chest?
That was exactly what I was thinking haha
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This new mechanic seams to just add a lot of bad stuff. One of the major good things I've always found about underrail was that it left behind bad concepts such as carry weights (or carry limits) and having to find the right merchant to sell the item... Quite frankly I'm the kind of person who cannot leave a stone unturned and who would not under any circunstances leave anything behind. To do so would drive me crazy. Then we add the fact that merchants will only buy so much which means that I'd spend hours running around trying to sell all of my loot which just end up making me stop playing cause I was not getting fun out of the game. For me what is important in the game, what makes it fun is going around killing enenemies. Looting, getting my character stronger and enjoying the story of it as well as all the side quests I can get. Anything that is turning me away from this path is making me enjoy the game less... I also think it's fair to say that most of the old-school RPG players think in a similar fashion.
Please do not limit our carry abillities (especially limiting for low strenght characters) and please do not limit our abillity to sell the items. If your problem is that some players will get less because they don't want to be forced to kill everyone and as a result they will get less loot. Then quite frankly there are other options. Just as there is an option not to take lockpicking. You get less loot but there are ways to make money making up for the loss such as crafting and pick pocketing. Same could be assumed here, if you get less loot from less killing, you can just steal people to make up for it or craft items and sell them to make up for it. All of these contrivances are just detrimental to everyone who enjoys the killing and looting proccess.
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While I understand the changes have been made for balance reasons some players don't find that much fun in balance, they like to have a stupid amount of money to call upon for whatever reason, I remember in Arcanum I use to go to the first town and pick pocket the blacksmith for his key to his wares and steal them and his money, I did this again and again until I was happy, I want this sort of thing available to players, if people don't want to do it because it would over power them then it is up to that person to not do it, but I would like the choice of being able to do so, it would also help players that find the game too hard, I know you've added an easy difficulty and i've yet to fully test this build out for longer than 30 minutes but I think the minor addition of being able to steal from clerks would be something worth doing so theif type characters can really prosper.
People are welcome to disagree with my views but at the end of the day if the option is there and you don't agree with it, don't do it, that is the beauty of choice. I find the same arguments about games that allow cheats and some people were screaming about not allowing cheats and I just think...why? Are you that mentally weak that you can't resist yourself and you want to take that option away from the people that do want it?
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That's a rather onesided view, though.
What about people that like to tinker with character builds, like, say, me, who are then forced to take suboptimal choices just to not make the game boring.
Recent examples include Dishonoured, Path of Exile, or for Boardgames Battletech.
Min-Maxing is fun, and it it turns out too easy, ends up OP, or the choices that have to be made are blatantly boring, it ruins the experience.
You may say it's like not using cheats, but I'm personally fed up with having to purposefully gimp myself just to enjoy a game. Isn't there also a component of beating a challenge?
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I've never found underrail to ever be easy even taking optimal routes. That might be because I am the kind of person who just likes going for combat and looting but still, in every fight I had to approuch it in an optimal way with an optimal built character and quite frankly the hardest parts usually required a few loads because some enemies just kill you so fast that even optimal builds alone aren't the only thing to take into account.
But that isn't exactly what should be being debated here but rather whether or not we belive the changes to the economy and weight system are good or not.
I already expressed being against it because it restricts the game so much to the point that it isn't fun to play anymore. But that is only my opinion.
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That's a rather onesided view, though.
What about people that like to tinker with character builds, like, say, me, who are then forced to take suboptimal choices just to not make the game boring.
Recent examples include Dishonoured, Path of Exile, or for Boardgames Battletech.
Min-Maxing is fun, and it it turns out too easy, ends up OP, or the choices that have to be made are blatantly boring, it ruins the experience.
It may be a one sided view, but this is exactly what I'm referring to when I mentioned other players complaining about it, it won't affect you if you have the choice to steal from a shop owner, you just don't do it and carry on as normal so it doesn't affect the way you play in any way shape or form, whereas I am able to steal from the shop keeper and we're both happy rather than me not having a choice at all.
Also what has it got to do with people that like to tinker with builds? I think I'm missing your point because as far as I can see it's got nothing to do with it, you want a melee character with high strength ok go ahead, you want a sniper with high dex go ahead, what does being able to steal from a store have to do with this?
You may say it's like not using cheats, but I'm personally fed up with having to purposefully gimp myself just to enjoy a game. Isn't there also a component of beating a challenge?
Why should you have to gimp yourself into enjoying the game? The economy of the game doesn't have to change, other than being able to steal items or money from shopkeepers, what actually changes about the game mechanics? Nothing.
It's all about the power of choice, if you don't want to have that option then be mentally strong enough to keep reloading that save on that particular hard combat and try different tactics, rather than resorting to stealing a resource that should be available to steal anyway.
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What Unlimited is trying to say (and what I agree with wholeheartedly) is that it's not players responsibility to balance how challenging the game is.
If a certain game mechanic is available in the game which grants the player a certain advantage if used correctly, it should be used by the player without them fearing it will unbalance the game to the point where it won't be challenging anymore. The players fun should come from figuring out how to best utilize and combine different mechanics to overcome a challenge. The player should not have to worry about which mechanics he should avoid in order for the game to still be challenging.
That said, what I might consider doing is allowing players to lift various restrains for a particular play-through. I'm not convinced there's value in this though.
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I get the point, however if that mechanic is available then I would imagine the player intelligent enough to know that abusing it would make the game unfair. If the player knows that doing action x is going to net easy money/experience then it's down to that person to not go down that route if they're going to feel cheap by it or feel like it's going to ruin the fun. In a way it's similar to waiting for enemies to re-spawn in different area's and just fighting them again for exp and equipment but that's just my viewpoint...
If the player should figure out how to best utilise and combine different mechanics to overcome a challenge then imo this type of thieving mechanic should be one of them available as a choice, maybe as a cheat command as I do agree that it could take away the challenge from the game but some people just like having a stupid level of money or items available to them, I have a thing where I like to overpower my character in most RPG's and see how long I can survive and take out ever possible NPC there is, I'm pretty sure you haven't designed the game to take that into consideration but it's something I will end up doing at some point.
Anyway I was just trying to make a point of player choice, if you don't intend to put that type of mechanic in the game that's down to you, if/when you do choose to explore that option and people say no it's useless and I'm the only one on this wagon feel free to pull it from the game, you won't find any complaints from me, I want this game to be just as amazing as you do.
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Hmm the new economy changes is alright for me. I love that merchants do not buy all your stuff but are looking for some specific items. Item weight system is fun too and goes well with the new merchant system. My new character has the lowest weight capacity with only 3 strength and it feels enough. I just stored all the stuff i do not use in my private room locker before further adventures.
As for money, i am not super rich but i am not poor either. I just started/am at the Armadillo quest.
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If "Traders buy 2x as much, No character carry limit" was available in the menu as a cheat, or more neutral a "Mod" like in the first Unreal Tournament, then I'd be fine with that.
Also, thanks Styg for putting it that well.
I'm a Game Designer myself, but in my free time kinda intend to not watch over that.^^
I really like feeling good about making the right choices, instead of regretting them because they turn out "too good". ;)
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Ok just finish all the main quest which are available (i.e got the city core quest but incomplete).
I felt like i have wasted so much on crafting skills and i never did craft an end game item for me. Only items i crafted was psi boosters, kits and TNT and one acid resistance leather armor against the mutant (makes life easier for the armadillo quest). Right now it is so much easier to buy items off merchants or loot.
Why i felt that crafting skills is sub par:
1) I bought a psionic headband for cheap 8 to all psi and 5% crit chance from Ezra. I then tried to craft an upgrade but i needed 94 electronics which is a huge investment ( i even put 1 skill point into int and later regretted it because crafting is lame). The headband i would have crafted would get 8 to all psi, 5% crit chance and 34% crit damage. I had 93 electronics at level 14 and i still need another level to craft it but well dunno what oddity i can still learn from.
2) Another example, i wanted to craft myself a regenerative vest but i needed about 80 tailor so i was working my way up to there. On my way to finish some quest i looted one which had better fire defense and life regeneration/turn (but wit higher energy consumption), less armor penalty (so more movement speed) but with less mechanical damage reduction. Here again i told myself dang wasted point in that.
I hope that we could get feats that improve our crafted items (only one i think is the power management feat) but then again what feat would i substitute for the crafting feat!
As for the oddity system. I love it. It is awesome except for i do not know what oddity i can still learn from ( Gotta need a list). Though for 1st quest- hopper quest, leveling is really really slow. Weight management is good too and is manageable even on a char with 3 strength. I like the new merchant system too. Took a while before i knew who wants what. New areas, mobs and quests are awesome, i was like hmm did not know that the map was that big.
I will be off until another 2-3 updates before ill play new game again but ill lurk on the forum from time to time.
Thx for the great game.
Hmm i wanna know if there are more psi spells under development or that is it? More feats too?
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I think most people felt the same problem with the crafting. It asks for too much skills to craft anything at all and by the time you can craft what you were trying to, you already have a much better item and to craft something than what you already have it's many more levels ahead of your current skill... It has been sugested before that items stopped requiring a skill and rather the quallity of the item was based on the skill ofthe crafter but this idea was rejected so I guess the only way to solve this is to severely tone down the crafting system requirements.
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Basically, crafters should be able to craft better items than what you normally can get, to an extent of course. The reason for this is that when you spend points into a skill, it's an investment and you invest in something to benefit from it. But when the items you find or buy are a lot better than the items that you craft with your precious skill points, crafting becomes inadequate. If crafting could be used to improve existing items with new mods, it would be much more beneficial and useful.
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I agree but therein lies the problem. Even if you could use crafting to just mod a weapon you already have it would just ask you for all of the skills each individual component has plus the extra to put the several parts together which would make it not work again. I still belive the best way would be for crafting items to lose skill requirements and instead your skill being determinat in the quallity of what you craft. That not being an option the best one is still to simply tone down the required skills a lot, I'm not going to go over numbers because i'd have to test and try to figure out what numbers would give an approximated value because quite frankly I'd rip my hair off dealing with merchants not buying everything and weight limits. but I'd risk to say that based on the huge disparity of what you can craft and what you can buy from what I remember it would maybe need a 50% requirement reduction. Again hard to be precises on any level without some proper testing of what is available on the market at my level and what I can craft (proccess repeated through various levels in order to get a good grip on the disparity).
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In the future I will introduce crafting components that will not be available for merchant generated items or are very rare. Actually, I already started with this process in the current patch - for instance crawler poison caltrops and bear traps (which are very useful, btw) are very rarely found on merchants.
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I can understand that Styg but let me put it in this perspective. How worth is it going to be to add a very rare component to a gun (assuming you even have the skill to put it on the gun if it's something that rare) if at the end of the day the gun's damage is going to be that much inferior to the damage of a gun that the merchant sells me?
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I can understand that Styg but let me put it in this perspective. How worth is it going to be to add a very rare component to a gun (assuming you even have the skill to put it on the gun if it's something that rare) if at the end of the day the gun's damage is going to be that much inferior to the damage of a gun that the merchant sells me?
If you found some low quality component early game, crafted a gun out of it and then traveled to say Junkyard and compared it to the higher level gear there, that's not enough to draw a conclusion that all crafted gear is inherently worse than what's available for purchase.
The equipment that the merchant sells is typically of the same level as the components the merchant sells. The equipment that the merchant sells is generated by using the same blueprints that the player uses when crafting and is crafted out of components of the appropriate level. So you see, the crafted equipment is not inferior in stats, it's actually, on average, the same level. Same goes for loot you find.
That about puts the crafting and purchasing on the same level power wise. The reason why it would be beneficial to a character to spend points on tech skills is as I stated in the previous posts - blueprints and components that are exclusive for crafting, or just very rarely found in a finished product. Not to mention that the crafting is both a cheaper way to obtain gear, can create profit when selling and can be used to craft consumables and such.
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I think you are missing te point. Let's say I've just reached the junkyard after getting the quest to go there. I get there, find the components to make a gun... They are all much higher skill than I can use. Now let's say I have all teh components and they are exactly of the skill level that I have in crafting. Whatever I craft the merchant will have much better version. In fact so much better there isn't even a base for comparison... That is were we are getting here. If we grab on components of the exact level we can craft nd then go to the merchant, the merchant just sells better weapons or armor altogether. Even if you add something rare that gives it some sort of bonus. The weapon base damage or the armor base defense is still going to be much lesser than what you can buy relativelly to what you can craft even if the components you have are exactly on the same skill level as you are.
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I think you are missing te point. Let's say I've just reached the junkyard after getting the quest to go there. I get there, find the components to make a gun... They are all much higher skill than I can use. Now let's say I have all teh components and they are exactly of the skill level that I have in crafting. Whatever I craft the merchant will have much better version. In fact so much better there isn't even a base for comparison... That is were we are getting here. If we grab on components of the exact level we can craft nd then go to the merchant, the merchant just sells better weapons or armor altogether. Even if you add something rare that gives it some sort of bonus. The weapon base damage or the armor base defense is still going to be much lesser than what you can buy relativelly to what you can craft even if the components you have are exactly on the same skill level as you are.
Merchants have a certain level range for items they sell. In case of Junkyard merchants it's typically 6-10 for most categories. Depending when you arrive in Junkyard you might not be able to craft gear as high level as that immediately (or you might, depending on intelligence stat). But by the time you're done with quests there and the Old Junkyard you will be able to AND you're probably going to pick up some higher level components from there (final areas of Old Junkyard give items of up to level 12) to craft something even better.
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That might be correct but let's put things into perspective. If you've finished the junkyard and can finally make beter stuff than what is currently in the junkyard. Then you are just aboutto move to a new area and that new area will have much better stuff to sell than what you can craft currently.
Crafting should always be keeping you ahead of the curve since you are investing your points into it.
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I have a different experience from crafting.
Usually the items i craft are usually superior to the ones sold by the merchants.
Also i am able to craft armors and weapons with the specific characteristics that i seek.
Sometimes you cant find that riot armor with an overcoat that is so fashionable this time of the year,
and there isn't a better solution to being able to craft it yourself.
Crafting should always be keeping you ahead of the curve since you are investing your points into it.
I am not sure i agree with this but this happens already in game.
Going through the GMS compound with a suit of metal armor feels like cheating.
I invite everyone to try it.
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I am unsure of how you manage to do this. In my personal experience and from what I've seen from most people it's impossible to craft something better than what is sold in the area unless you've already finished with that area (you already leveled enough to have the skills for those components).
And if you are unsure that crafting should keep you ahead of the curve then I cannot imagine what you think crafting is for. Sure in some cases like making grenades or psi booters and similar stuff serves to make you some money or just to save you money on that kind of stuff. But when we talk about combat gear it must be something to keep you ahead of the curve. It makes no sense that whatever equipment you can make is worse than what is being sold. Then why bother making it in the first place? The natural thing to do is go to the new area, buy the best equipment you can find and use it for that eare... sure you can't aford a whole new set of equipment but you can get enough, usually just getting the best weapon does the trick, the rest eitehr drops or you buy after a couple quests there anyway.
As for trying it. I have done it in the previous version and aside the explosives requiring more skills now, there is no change to teh skill requirments for the equipment from all the dev logs. Also people continue to complain about it so it must still be as it was. So I will not try it because I don't like the new economy system. I don't have a problem with many improvements it has brought, but weight limits and limiting how much merchants buy from you is enough to have me running around from merchant to merchant just trying to sell my stuff and getting incredibly bored and frustated... This not to mention several trips to the same areas to get loot cause I couldn't carry more and even getting slowed down by the loot I carry... One of the major points about this game for me was exactly that it was foregoing all of this busy work which served no other purpose other than frustate a player. I know Styg wants to just limit what players pick up, force them to make a choice of what to carry and what to leave behind but in the majority of cases I'd say players won't do that. Players will just do whatever it takes to bring everything back and sell everything and eventually they will get frustated and stop playing at all. Because I know that would happen to me I'd rather just wait for some update where either that has been removed or has an option to be turned off.
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I am unsure of how you manage to do this. In my personal experience and from what I've seen from most people it's impossible to craft something better than what is sold in the area unless you've already finished with that area (you already leveled enough to have the skills for those components).
On my next playthrough i am going to note down both the stats of vendor items and the ones i craft adding both the location and my skill levels.
And if you are unsure that crafting should keep you ahead of the curve then I cannot imagine what you think crafting is for.
Oops, i am sorry i clearly misunderstood you there. I thought you meant that your character was going to be ahead of the curve, not your gear.
This not to mention several trips to the same areas to get loot cause I couldn't carry more and even getting slowed down by the loot I carry... One of the major points about this game for me was exactly that it was foregoing all of this busy work which served no other purpose other than frustate a player.
I am not trying to be funny, but that sounds like ocd. Cant you just let that loot go?
Do you really need the edge that selling that extra loot would give you?
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It isn't a case of OCD though I know what you mean. I have actually laughed about how people that have OCD sometimes react (yeah not really a nice thing to do but hey, I'm not perfect). It's just that for me a great part of the fun of the game is exactly killing everything and getting the loot, if I don't get it all it starts getting meh for me.
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It isn't a case of OCD though I know what you mean. I have actually laughed about how people that have OCD sometimes react (yeah not really a nice thing to do but hey, I'm not perfect). It's just that for me a great part of the fun of the game is exactly killing everything and getting the loot, if I don't get it all it starts getting meh for me.
And what if you recycled the less worthy loot into repair kits, that are much lighter and still useful?
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It's just not really worth it and most of the times I don't really use crafting. The way I like to go is full on psionic with a crossbow and some persuasion to get things my way. Stealth for guaranteed first turn as well as lockpicking and hacking to just get everything.
Still how much worth are repair kits now? From what Styg said on the dev notes it seamed like only the incredibly valuable items are worth repairing before selling so I'd probably end up with tons of kits and no where to spend them. Another problem lies with the encuberance which would have me losing lots of movement points (maybe action? not sure if they are affected as well)... I just dislike those two things and it seams it will be just better for me to avoid the game altogether until both of those are either removed or optional.
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Crafting should always be keeping you ahead of the curve since you are investing your points into it.
This isn't my intention with crafting.
In most of my playthroughs I have similar experience as LazyMonk. If I take crafting I usually end up crafting gear myself because it's cheaper or I cannot find what I need specifically. Also because the level of merchant gear is in certain range (say, 6-10) and not fix, it's only sometimes that you get higher level gear there than you can craft at that moment.
If I end up not using what I craft it's usually because I manage to kill a high level NPC for their stuff.
We could go around the topic of how you don't like weight limit all day, but it's rather pointless as your reasons for not liking it seem to be mostly irrational and not having anything to do with game economy. But tell me, I'm curious, which RPGs -can- you play? Almost all of them employ some manner of inventory limitation and even if they have fast travel it's usually not convenient enough to quickly haul stuff.
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We could go around the topic of how you don't like weight limit all day, but it's rather pointless as your reasons for not liking it seem to be mostly irrational and not having anything to do with game economy. But tell me, I'm curious, which RPGs -can- you play? Almost all of them employ some manner of inventory limitation and even if they have fast travel it's usually not convenient enough to quickly haul stuff.
IIRC Gothic has no weight or inventory limits? Avadon has introduced junk bag for all the junk you want to sell later by single click, inventory has space limit but weight is related only to equipped items. Dungeon Siege has pack mules to carry the loot. 8)
But for the most time weight and inventory limitations are just annoying unless forcing player to do extra walking if he wants to make little extra cash.
In most RPG you end up with tons of money which you can't spend on anything so instead of balancing economy it would make more sense to add things on which to spend money... for example option to solve quest by using ridiculous amount of cash (i.e. planting a bug for Abrams by bribing assistant or simply buying that thing for Eddy instead of stealing it or hiring someone to get you Armadillo part because your lazy etc.)?
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Aah dungeon siege, now there was a bad game.
I finished it just to prove my friends i could do it with a single character instead of using a party.
The start might have been a bit rough but i didn't had to share the XP with any party members and so my character became quite strong very early. I had 3 mules with me. I could buy anything i wanted and, if i remember correctly, money was falling off my pockets, literally.
It was a very boring adventure.
In most RPG you end up with tons of money which you can't spend on anything so instead of balancing economy it would make more sense to add things on which to spend money...
And that's a flaw of those RPGS and the money sinks they make are not a solution to the problem, it just
acknowledges their inability or unwillingness to fix they're game's economy.
Real estate market or playing a successful scavenger that became a millionaire one scrap of metal at a time, should have no place in a harsh post-apocalyptic world.
From my experience most economies break at some point in most of the RPGs i have played.
The latter it happens the better, to me. Its when i am struggling financially that i am having the most fun.
To carefully think what my priorities are, and managing my resources in a smart way to get the most of what i have, should be a constant on this kind of game.
I applaud Styg on his efforts on making this game's economy balanced and fun to any hardcore rpg fan.
So far, i cant disagree with any of the features he added to balance the underrail's economy.
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Well Styg it may not be your intention with crafting, but it certainly is what the vast majority of people will expect of the crafting system, to just keep them ahead of the curve. The money they get will still be enough to get them the stuff they need without having to craft. that is why it's optional after all, you have to be able to keep up with the game on drops and buying if you don't want to craft. So if the game has that balance (and it sure has) then it's just plain better to do it than using crafting which will keep you undergeared by comparison just to safe a little bit of money.
As for games I playd I haven't actually played one that would be without retrictions but they weren't this bad!..
Fallout 2 - had a weight limit but I could carry still a huge amount of equipment and my card still had a trunk to drop a lot of stuff.
Arcanum - Had a space limit but between myself and the party I was with I never ran out of space in any situation.
Sacred 2 - Had a space limit but it was huge to start with and you had an option to auto sell items wherever you were for a tiny bit less than they were worth so you could just sell junk instantly and not bother with a 10% loss cause it was maybe 1 gold per piece.
Now you not only implement a weight system, but accordingly to the notes, one that gradually slows you down when most games just have a how much you can carry but they don't penalise you for taking all the stuff you can carry. In some cases you have the option to cary over the weight limit for an encubered state which only had the inconvinience of not being able to run which in no way affected combat and the trade off moving slower was carrying even more stuff when the limit is usually already high anyway. In no RPG have I ever had a system where merchants didn't bought all my stuff and made me go around for a very long time to try to sell everything.
The problem is that you are applying several restrictions for no reason whatsoever. This does not stops the player from getting everything or selling everything. You are just making sure that the players stop having fun when doing so and if players don't have fun then I'm sure they will just stop playing. It certainly is what I'd do and that is why I'm not trying the current update... this isn't something irrational, you are adding mechanics which many people already expressed not liking and felt they only add to detriment of the fun of playing the game. Don't forget a game has things that make sense only in a game but not in real life because at the end of the day, it is a game. So if something wouldn't make sense in real life, like a guy carrying 1000 KG of stuff on his back, it makes sense in a game because frankly going back and forth is wasted time that the player will do for that extra coin but will degrade his experience through boredom. Even worse if the merchants don't buy everything.
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Now you not only implement a weight system, but accordingly to the notes, one that gradually slows you down when most games just have a how much you can carry but they don't penalise you for taking all the stuff you can carry.
This does not happen, but sounds really cool.
Styg could you implement the weight system like Elhazzared described, please? :P
What does happen is something like this. Imagine your max weight limit is say 150. If you are carrying 149 your encumbrance penalty is ZERO. It only starts at above 150. Then you will become lightly encumbered, and if you keep grabbing stuff, at some point (i don't know when yet) you are probably to become heavily encumbered.
I imagine, i haven't tried to reach that point.
The problem is that you are applying several restrictions for no reason whatsoever.
He does have a reason, and a damn good one. To keep the game's economy balanced and entertaining.
you are adding mechanics which many people already expressed not liking and felt they only add to detriment of the fun of playing the game.
I am having more fun now than ever with the game.
Fun is a subjective thing and i am glad Styg is making a game that pleases the more old school and/or the hardcore crowd, that has been starving for a decade.
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@LazyMonk That's how it works already. What Elhazzared is complaining about, I imagine, is that it has combat penalties as well.
@Elhazzared
Actually, as far as I can tell most people are ok with the new system and are happily playing the game, so don't assume you speak for everyone or most of them. There are complaints here and there and there always will be. I cannot please everyone, nor do I want to.
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Real estate market or playing a successful scavenger that became a millionaire one scrap of metal at a time, should have no place in a harsh post-apocalyptic world.
So you saying hard work shouldn't pay off? That not really role playing is it? :P
I applaud Styg on his efforts on making this game's economy balanced and fun to any hardcore rpg fan.
So far, i cant disagree with any of the features he added to balance the underrail's economy.
Well I did suggest on the first page option of taking over some merchant business through side quest and using him to sale your loot bit by bit over a (long) period of time instead of forcing player to walk around in order to sell that cool automatic rifle he found. New system is fun but after a while all that walking from merchant to merchant to check which one is buying firearms and has enough cash or some cool items worth bartering gets a bit boring, also weight has negative impact on bartering since getting heavy item like metal plates with weight 20 can seriously slow you down if you already have some other heavy components or just simply have heavy gear so you would first need to go to your room unload armor, weapons, ammo and all other non relevant items and then visit merchant so you can buy heavier stuff from merchant and still be able to move back to your room. ::)
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What does happen is something like this. Imagine your max weight limit is say 150. If you are carrying 149 your encumbrance penalty is ZERO. It only starts at above 150. Then you will become lightly encumbered, and if you keep grabbing stuff, at some point (i don't know when yet) you are probably to become heavily encumbered.
First 20-30 you are just overweight and mover more slowly and have less action points and for example you can no longer use special action with sniper rifle, after that you go into red and can barely move and if you add even more you no longer cannot move at all.
I imagine, i haven't tried to reach that point.
Depends on the loot you encounter, I avoid sledgehammers like plague (or just convert them into scrap to make repair kits) since there wight is 20+ and I even found some type of boots which also get weight 20+ despite being nothing special and since I have yet to discover merchant which buys boots I leave them or scrap them also, animal parts are also pretty heavy and internal organs are stackable so you can get insane weight fast! Not to mention ammo if you forget to store or sell excess ammo. I fear once game gets bigger weight system might also become much bigger annoyance since much more people will be closer to the carrying limits and especially since we won't have powered armor and similar things to help with weight issues.
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@Styg - Most people bear with it, they don't like it. A few like it and a few will dislike it enough not to play. But I am quite sure that if you were to ask every individual player if they like the weight system and merchants not buying everything, most will say that they don't like it... Not wanting to please everyone is something I can get behind, after all this is your game and at the end of the day it should be done in a way it pleases you but I belive all these restrictions are just plain bad for the game overall. People like difficulty to come from the challanges they face. How they deal with a situation, be it through diplomacy, threatning, killing, stealling. Just to give a few examples. Inventory management is not fun in any game and while I don't doubt this new economy system brought a lot of good things since prices are better, items drop with (possibly) more health, you don't have to repair everything as only a few items are worth repairing. But the weight restrictions along with merchants not buying everything is going to mean for many players. Go into a place. Do 1/3 of it, go back spend 20 minutes trying to sell the loot. Go back to the mission and get another 1/3 of the loot. I'm quite sure low str characters will face such problems because not only they have a low limit of no encuberance, but because there is all sort of items that they always carry with them to deal with certain situation... No one fully empties the inventory after all.
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So you saying hard work shouldn't pay off?
No, that was not what i was saying.
That not really role playing is it?
As hard as defining what roleplaying is in computer games, i can assure you that being able to own a
stronghold or any other money sinks are not part of it. The lack of these features does not hinder any roleplaying game.
New system is fun but after a while all that walking from merchant to merchant to check which one is buying firearms and has enough cash or some cool items worth bartering gets a bit boring
That does sound boring. Why do you do it? I haven't been short in cash in my current playthrough yet, and i have all the items i want
and then some just by selling a couple of firearms and some other odd item that i brought from my last quest.
also weight has negative impact on bartering since getting heavy item like metal plates with weight 20 can seriously slow you down if you already have some other heavy components
Weight has indeed a negative impact on bartering, as it should. Why do you think it was added in the first place? And you should not be strolling with items as heavy as metal plates. Unless you are going to craft something with them, i suggest you just leave them be. Or not, since i am traveling, right now, with a tungsten plate in my pocket and it hasn't affected my looting habits.
so you would first need to go to your room unload armor, weapons, ammo and all other non relevant items and then visit merchant so you can buy heavier stuff from merchant and still be able to move back to your room.
I have never needed to do any of that. But indeed i agree, as it sounds really boring.
Are you collecting heavy items in your room?
EDIT, to avoid double posting
First 20-30 you are just overweight and mover more slowly and have less action points and for example you can no longer use special action with sniper rifle, after that you go into red and can barely move and if you add even more you no longer cannot move at all.
Thanks for the information.
Depends on the loot you encounter, I avoid sledgehammers like plague (or just convert them into scrap to make repair kits) since there wight is 20+
That's what you should do. I believe that's exactly the kind of behavior Styg wanted to promote.
especially since we won't have powered armor
We have no idea yet how powered armor is going to turn out, so that is just speculation.
Styg on power armor: So in short, don't expect a fallout style power armor to be introduced. However, what I will probably add is an ability to add certain powered components to heavy armors (metal armor and possibly other future types of heavy armor) during crafting that might augment some of your abilities or provide additional armor effects while powered.
You can read it all here:
http://underrail.com/forums/index.php?topic=355.msg1719#msg1719 (http://underrail.com/forums/index.php?topic=355.msg1719#msg1719)
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That does sound boring. Why do you do it? I haven't been short in cash in my current playthrough yet, and i have all the items i want
and then some just by selling a couple of firearms and some other odd item that i brought from my last quest.
Components come in various type of quality so I'm trying to get best one possible to see what kind of item I can craft from it, this can cost a lot of cash.
Weight has indeed a negative impact on bartering, as it should. Why do you think it was added in the first place? And you should not be strolling with items as heavy as metal plates. Unless you are going to craft something with them, i suggest you just leave them be. Or not, since i am traveling, right now, with a tungsten plate in my pocket and it hasn't affected my looting habits.
I try keep best possible component of each I find/buy and sell or craft something with lower quality ones, I guess I'm hoping of discovering some new dynamically crafted item which was added with which I can replace my existing gear.
Are you collecting heavy items in your room?
One closet for ammo, one for consumables, one shelf for cool items which I want to test, one box for components... yes I'm true pack rat, at lest until I get kicked out of SGS for storing few tons of TNT in my room before it accidentally exploded taking out most of the base. 8)
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Maybe we need a packrat Feat?
+30 Weight Limit?
Or +50, -5% sales revenue (stuff gets damaged on transport)?
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Yeah, merchants need some more tweaking. I will be going though the categories to make sure all are included somewhere (not necessarily all the time) and I'll probably increase the number of item types that all merchants buy per reset by one, to reduce the random factor.
Pack rat feat is a good idea. Mercantile feats also sound like something that might be cool.
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+1 to Unlimited's and epeli's suggestions.
The economy felt really smooth, and i had to shop smartly until the gang showdown where i started to become quite comfortable
with weight of my wallet. Also i was quite happy with crafting 38 advanced mechanical kits with the remains of my fallen opponents.
The price of lockpicks felt a little low to me.
Also, have you considered adding more powerful healing items, more expensive and with some drawbacks?
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Okay I haven't had the chance to play this game in a while due to school, but from what I see I am getting concerned. At first it was adding energy cells in order to use hacking devices and requiring the player to purchase and manage lockpicks - this really just made the game more of a chore but didn't limit anyone in any meaningful sense of player choice. Then you added weapon and armor degradation, which forced the player to deal with the irritating burden of constantly maintaining their gear, again without any meaningful consequences in terms of player choice/consequence. All of this was done for the sake of the economy, which at the time you said wasn't even working because the amount people could loot was still worth far more than what they lost in taking care of these menial tasks.
So now to actually fix the economy (while keeping all of the other menial tasks above for a reason I don't understand), you've simply made it impossible to sell the vast majority of the things you pick up so that only key items can be sold. Not only that but you added severe weight penalties. I understand some hardcore players really love this, but this is becoming unbearable. Now I have to deal with the headache of waiting *an hour* before I have *a chance* of selling something to a dealer (and from that only from a small subset of items), and I also have to deal with making multiple trips back to the same place if there were some key items there that I missed. You make it sound so easy; instead of the boring drudgery of going back to the same place, why not go on a new adventure? As if this game had easy combat and cheap items - this is one of the hardest RPGs I've played, and the reason why it is doable is because I scour every area to make sure I have enough resources to buy all-important ammunition and repair kits, as well as some left over money to save up for better weapons and armor and other key consumables.
Other games clearly have limitations as well. I played New Vegas in hardcore mode because I thought it would be a fun challenge. What I realized is that the vast majority of the 'small' things you have to worry about (hydration, food, sleep, weight limits, armor/weapon condition) added up to simply being nothing more than a menial chore that I had to deal with - they didn't add any meaningful challenge to the game besides making sure you bought a few meals at the local store where you did your trading. It seems your goal here is to amplify these difficulties to the point where it actually becomes a key game mechanic to only operate with the bare essentials, selling only the most expensive items, and only in limited quantities, to certain traders, at certain times.
The whole joy I derive from RPGs is the prospect that my character gets better; over time he has more disposable wealth, he finds a steady way of making income, it becomes easier to carry goods to and fro (perhaps by travelling with companions or even having a car like in Fallout 2), and of course his overall skills increase. What I observe is the focus in this game is not to make this game about getting better but about constantly making rough choices so that you always feel like you just have enough to make it in the next area. But to me its anti-fun...the greatest part of every game I've played was when you finally get a great spell, an amazing weapon, a new car (Fallout 2), or steal an incredibly expensive item and end up with lots of money. Yes, in these moments the game feels unbalanced. That is part of the fun.
There are supposed to be great parts to the game where you really feel more powerful or capable in some way, but it seems like your gaming philosophy is to repress this as much as possible. The game economy is not supposed to be perfectly balanced; people should be able to get rich because there is joy in getting rich...but with your system you have to probably wait days before you are able to sell the requisite items...I just don't understand where the fun is in this.
Maybe it gets better as I'm just at the start of the game, but I'm already frustrated because I don't even know if its worth purchasing traps for collecting cave hoppers anymore, because the guy who sells them only wants to buy 7 units of cave fungi or flowers, meaning I can't really sell my cave hoppers to anyone unless I have the patience to wait an hour for him to hopefully want something besides flowers. And even then he'd probably only want 5 when I have 15 cages. Its just maddening to be honest...when I look at the inventory screens of every other trader I know I'm basically going to be severely crippled in my cash flow and most of my scavenging fun will be useless as no one really wants to buy anything anymore.
I wish I could make my own game...it would be so great lol. In any case it seems you really love the economy as it is barring a few minor tweaks. So I guess I'll be dropping the game, but I wish you all the best in the release. I had some fun during the earlier stages (pre-alpha) at least, so thank you for that :).
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The whole joy I derive from RPGs is the prospect that my character gets better; over time he has more disposable wealth, he finds a steady way of making income, it becomes easier to carry goods to and fro (perhaps by travelling with companions or even having a car like in Fallout 2), and of course his overall skills increase. What I observe is the focus in this game is not to make this game about getting better but about constantly making rough choices so that you always feel like you just have enough to make it in the next area. But to me its anti-fun...the greatest part of every game I've played was when you finally get a great spell, an amazing weapon, a new car (Fallout 2), or steal an incredibly expensive item and end up with lots of money. Yes, in these moments the game feels unbalanced. That is part of the fun.
The point of a RPG isn't to get to a point where the games stops being challenging. When that happens its a flaw of the game.
Even Bethesda realizes this and tried to solve this with a very poor level scaling attempt.
A good RPG should be challenging all the way through. If the game becomes too easy, it becomes boring to me.
Blackguards and Expedition Conquistador made a game that is challenging from the beginning to the end. FTL, even if is not a RPG, did this too. That happened in Fallout 2 because you could grind those random encounters.
And there is something odd in getting wealthy in a post-apocalyptic world just through selling common items and doing some mercenary quests.
There are supposed to be great parts to the game where you really feel more powerful or capable in some way, but it seems like your gaming philosophy is to repress this as much as possible. The game economy is not supposed to be perfectly balanced; people should be able to get rich because there is joy in getting rich...but with your system you have to probably wait days before you are able to sell the requisite items...I just don't understand where the fun is in this.
And thank Styg for that! I want my experience of Underrail to be fun and challenging through the whole thing. Not just the beginning.
Maybe it gets better as I'm just at the start of the game, but I'm already frustrated because I don't even know if its worth purchasing traps for collecting cave hoppers anymore, because the guy who sells them only wants to buy 7 units of cave fungi or flowers, meaning I can't really sell my cave hoppers to anyone unless I have the patience to wait an hour for him to hopefully want something besides flowers. And even then he'd probably only want 5 when I have 15 cages. Its just maddening to be honest...when I look at the inventory screens of every other trader I know I'm basically going to be severely crippled in my cash flow and most of my scavenging fun will be useless as no one really wants to buy anything anymore.
Wow, wait... what? You are catching cave hoppers for a living? WHY? It sounds like a slow boring inefficient way of making money.
Why not just play through the quests and sell what you find while exploring. Those items like armors and firearms sell really much better.
So I guess I'll be dropping the game, but I wish you all the best in the release.
:( Good bye.
Now go play Fallout 1 so you can stop referencing the lesser sequel.
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@LazyMonk - Well to be fair I think joejoe has some decent points. The player should have some feeling of progression or even over-empowerment and/or an opportunity to excel in some gaming aspect instead of the feeling of barely scraping by at all times. Not saying the game should be a cake walk and being able to one-shot everything to boost the ego or something.
@joejoe - The economy does need some tweaking (and Styg knows this also) in the players favor but not too much where it takes away from that survival aspect Styg is trying to encourage in the game and which I and several others seem to like at least to an extent (I'll admit I'm not as die-hard about it as some others but it does make an interesting game for the most part. Remember the game is still in Alpha so I'm sure some of these issues will be addressed. Even for an Alpha the game is better than some finished games I've played! So you can be pretty certain the game will be well polished in all aspects before its release and encourage you to keep trying it out upon further releases. But any feedback at all as long as its given constructively I think in the long run will help the game be better. Thanks for contributing.
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@LazyMonk - Well to be fair I think joejoe has some decent points. The player should have some feeling of progression or even over-empowerment and/or an opportunity to excel in some gaming aspect instead of the feeling of barely scraping by at all times. Not saying the game should be a cake walk and being able to one-shot everything to boost the ego or something.
But the game has that already. Every character i play becomes better, with more tactical opportunities to surpass hostile encounters without the game losing any challenge, and by the end of the alpha i have more cash than what i can spend. From his post i am deducing that he didn't finish the GMS compound quest, and so these points he made were not based on the game but on his suppositions of what it would feel like if he had continued playing.
When i played fallout 2 i had to handicap myself to have fun. I head to wear worse armor and kill my enemies with just my bare hands.
That's hardly a model to copy.
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And yet I think we are all forgeting the one thing Joejoefine is pointing out which is actually the same I've kept saying time and time again.
All the things that are done to the game economy doesn't changes any of the difficulty or creates survival elements. It creates a a huge amount of time waste to be able to sell everything. More to the point it also renders stuff like crafting for selling to make extra money useless. Even catching hoppers or maybe even fishing (something I hadn't really thought off before) to gain some extra coins if you really needed, useless.
Like I said. In my experience which was just, clear 2 areas of rathounts and loot whatever is to loot. I can't sell everything. I only started getting some loot and already I can't sell everything. What of when I get to GMS? What when I go to depot A? It will be a nightmare just to sell everything not to mention check every single merchant between home and junkyard... If survival wants to be made, limit the loot, not the sales. That is what survival games do, they limit what you can get, not what you can sell.
Oh and as for games being badly designed because you after a while can kick everyone's ass... Not a single game I've played has made this impossible. Underrail is actually harder than most, but not because you don't get the money or the equipment or whatever. Several enemies with lots of HP and weapons that deal a good amount of damage. You can make whatever you want, this will still be true and you can always go down in a fight no matter how well equiped you are. Yet most of the times you just kick ass with minimal planning. Stealth over there, engange the priority target and either immediatly kill or stun it, proceed with AoEs to clear weaker enemies. Should be good enough... Rare is the ocasion you have to plan further than this. The game is making you have less money, everyone says that even on this new system you should actually gain more than before, it just forces you to leave loot behind or waste too much time trying to sell it. Thisonly acomplishes wasting time and frustating all the players who love to collect all the loot, it doesn't makes the game any harder in any way, shape or form.
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And yet I think we are all forgeting the one thing Joejoefine is pointing out which is actually the same I've kept saying time and time again.
Its because it isn't there to prohibit the player of such behavior, but to discourage him.
I know that some of you cant sleep at night knowing that there is some loot out there, left behind on a dark room.
Or even worse, knowing that you wont be able to sell it all.
After i am done with a quest i move on to another, i don't go back to get all that i left behind. Why?
Well because i don't need to. Because i have more than enough, to equip myself and the game has no longer the economic problem it had before version 1.7.0.
If survival wants to be made, limit the loot, not the sales. That is what survival games do, they limit what you can get, not what you can sell.
That's not what survival games do. That's what you would like them to do. Back at Fallout merchants didn't had infinite caps so there was an amount of weapons you could sell. When they were out of caps you could trade for ammo and other things but you would eventually have weapons you wouldn't be able to sell.
I remember having to carefully select what loot i was going to leave back at the Glow, since there was no way i could bring everything with me and there was no way i would go there again. :)
I am sure many other games limit the amount of what you can sell because its a concept that's is hardly new to me. I cant remember what other games did this, other than the Fallout series, but i am sure there were more.
Oh and as for games being badly designed because you after a while can kick everyone's ass... Not a single game I've played has made this impossible.
Its bound to happen on open world games through power gaming or badly designed level scaling. A feature that removes, at some point, the challenge from a game is a flaw. I can recommend some games to you where such doesn't happen if you want me to.
You can make whatever you want, this will still be true and you can always go down in a fight no matter how well equipped you are
At the point i am at on Underrail Rathounds and Burrower Spawn's do zero damage to me unless they score a critical.
Also keep in mind that these features serve more purposes than increasing the difficulty (or boredom in some cases as some of you would correct me :) ) the weight system adds to the feeling when you are scavenging, to keep an eye open for good items and leave the useless pieces of scrap metal behind.
The fact that the vendors don't buy everything you want them to buy, and the fact they have their own needs not only makes sense, as it makes the game world more believable. Yes its not perfect right now but it is still work in progress.
I am still puzzled by the get all loot, sell all loot goal. Are some of you upset as well that you cant study
an oddity past its limit? What a waste! Don't limit how many times a player can study such oddity limit the number of oddities available? Its exactly the same thing. You got all you needed from the loot you sold, why do you care about the one you did not and could not because the vendor is stuffed with stuff?
Elhazzared, have you been keeping track of Project Eternity, now called Pillars of Eternity?
Josh Sawyer has a very different approach to games, and i believe he allows the player to
teleport extra loot directly to his stash. While i am not found of this, or other many of his decisions, maybe this game can be your cup of tea.
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It doesn't discourages me from picking up the loot, it discourages me from playing at all. Like me, there are many others. Looting is fun, but it stops being fun when it just isn't worth it to pick up everything and sell it.
I didn't played much fallout 1. I played once to get to know the game story but what I played a lot was fallout 2. The first one had a major flaw to it. It was incredibly small, getting to the end was so quick that it left a sour taste. The game was great, but the playtime just left me... Meh, is that it?.. Course this may be derived from having played fallout 2 a lot before I even played the first... Still fallout 2 didn't limited what merchants would buy, just how much money they had and even that was a bad mechanic. I would still be able to sell most of my stuf going through all merchants in a city and if there wasn't a way, a few more stimpacks were always handy for no weight and heals. Especially since I could use an infinite amount of them per turn... I don't know any RPGs that severely limit what you sell like this game and even if there are some (which I have no doubt there are). That doesn't makes it a good mechanic... I rmember in both fallout 1 and 2 I looted everything and I sold everything. Nothing was ever left behind under no circunstance.
Any and all RPGs will just have ways through power gamming to get stronger than the average player will and since dificulty is scaled for the average player you can always get much stronger than your enemies. You just don't have am effective way to prevent this.
And yes, I'm sure rathounds and such cannot do anything. But we have to put things in perpective. Your level and equipment is not for fighting the type of mobs you find early on. I'm quite sure that in the junkyard you are damaged and can die or wherever the appropriate level content is for you at the moment. That is what I meant.
These features don't add difficulty, they add the boredom of selling everything. Even if you don't pick everything up, you are now getting more money than before, if anything it's even less difficult than before, it's just more boring to sell stuff... Also in a supposed scavenging game, you don't pick what you scavange, that doesn't even makes sense. in such a game, anything and everything is important to help you survive. There shouldn't even be such a question as to whether you should take something but whether it's worth the risk to get something. That's how you play scanvenging well.
Also let's not forget here. This is a game. There are things that don't need to make sense in a real world perpective, they need to make gammy sense.
I cannot tell about the oddity, I couldn't care less to be honest as I don't like the oddity system myself. I would never play on that system. I can rspect that the option is there for those who would prefer it! But I wouldn't ever use it myself and here lies the difference. The vendor system is not an option, it's forced on us whether we like it or not.
Lastly, no I've never heard about it but I guess I can go and give it a look.
Edit: I just took a look at it and it appears to be baldur's gate like which means, no turn based combat. Not my cup of tea.
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Don't know what are you all talking about. )
I will not argue long about the economy, I do not know the language adequately.
And I don't know, what economy is designed to do in the game.
Just want to say - my char is right after gang showdown, he barely sold 2 firearm and armor from this event, and he has 7x999 pile of SHARONS, plus 71 sharons, and that's after I bought all blueprints.
Yes, I'm very patient player, so let's say, less patient can get 1\2 of that number - 3,5x999. ))
Yes, I playing Psi-build, who need almost nothing.
Items, that nobody want to bay - footwear, and some craft components, and usual bolts.
Likely later in the game someone will buy these things.
My char has 3 Str, and even in that case I can loot everything in most cases, except animal leather.
the weight system adds to the feeling when you are scavenging, to keep an eye open for good items and leave the useless pieces of scrap metal behind.
The fact that the vendors don't buy everything you want them to buy, and the fact they have their own needs not only makes sense, as it makes the game world more believable.
Agreed. Yes, I forced to do script "check Ezra--->check Kathrine--->check other trading guys", but in this game, with this music IT IS almost meditative process.
Edit: I just took a look at it and it appears to be baldur's gate like which means, no turn based combat. Not my cup of tea.
Try Age of Decadence. ) It's pure turn-based game, with very difficult fights however, the second (or the first) game, which release I was so looking forward to.
I rmember in both fallout 1 and 2 I looted everything and I sold everything. Nothing was ever left behind under no circunstance.
Oh you little liar. :P How about Geiger Counter? )
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Fenix. My problem is that I cannot leave things behind, it feels dirty to me, it feels plain wrong, in fact if I know I have to leave stuff behind then it completly discourages me from exploring everything because what's the pleasure of finding loot to sell when I can't sell it because I have so much junk that no one will buy even a third of what I find? I just can't play like that, it drives me insane.
You know, going over all the merchants when you are looking for something? Sure, it's sensible that each will have different wares. Going through every single merchant in the game, selling less than a third of your loot, heck possibly less than a 10th if you consider many components that you get in high quantities and that no one wants in high quantities, not to mention the possibillity of not wanting them at all. Just imagine how many hours it will be before everything is sold.
I am actually waiting for age of decadence too but it's one I'll wait for a full release and some more informed opinion on the game. Even then I'll probably wait for a steam promotion cause I want a lower entry price since right now I can't afford expensive stuff.
And I'm no little liar. Nothing under any circusntace was left behind, no matter how low the value, no matter how heavy. If for some reason my carry weight wouldn't allow me to get all the loot at once I'd make multiple trips until everything was sold... Thing is, fallout had reasonable carry weights, I even used to put small frame for the extra agi point because 125 lbs was more than enough. In fact in fallout 2 there was only 3 places that I couldn't brng everything at once... Well tecnicly 4 but one of them doesn't counts... First place was the bandid cave south of vault city, usually took me 2 or 3 trips... Then there was sierra army depot if I'm not mistaken, the army base with loads of super mutants... Last was the navarro naval base... Course one could say the oil platform would be the 4th but that is the end game so it doesn't really counts... Multiple trips, nothing left behind even if it was worth only 1 coin.
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Fenix. My problem is that I cannot leave things behind, it feels dirty to me, it feels plain wrong
Me too! And I collected all junk'n'scrap of a game. )) With 3 Str build. )
And I'm no little liar.
Oh you are! ) Nobody want to buy used Geiger Counter. )
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Why do I feel like I'm missing some key detail here?
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Why do I feel like I'm missing some key detail here?
Becouse I rmember in both fallout 1 and 2 I looted everything and I sold everything.
)
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Well as far as I can remember there was no single item that couldn't be sold... If for some reason it was worth 0 money, it probably just went in withthe rest without me noticing it being worthless but I never kept them nor I ever threw them away, some merchant always ended up with it.
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As I told you - nobody want to buy it even for 0 coin.
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Not as far as I remember. There was no item except certain quest related items that just couldn't be sold.
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You don't listen me - no-bo-dy buy it, if GC is discharged.