Underrail Forum

Underrail => Development Log => Topic started by: Styg on March 01, 2013, 12:35:43 am

Title: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: Styg on March 01, 2013, 12:35:43 am
(http://www.underrail.com/images/DevLog/Areas/JunkyardHobos.jpg)

I'm still working on the new content for next release (v0.1.7.0), but I also took a break from that to address more balance issues.

Now, before I hit you with a big list of changes, let me give you a brief intro about the subject at hand.

Looking at the current release version, the biggest issue with the game currently mechanics-wise is that it gets increasingly easier once the player gets past the early stages. One of the main reasons for that, which I've already addressed in the previous dev logs, is the (over)power of grenades and other AoE attacks. The biggest issue, however, is the game's economy. Namely, that the player quickly gets rich from the insane amount of loot that he can acquire. This dev log focuses primarily on that, as well as on re-balancing some other abilities/items that I've found to be a bit too good.

The biggest change here is that I've reduced the amount of loot that is available through scavenging significantly. The biggest offenders were mid-late game dungeons (I didn't mess with the starting areas, they are fine) and also somewhat corners of urban areas that were way to easy to plunder with impunity. For the most part I haven't removed any stuff from the loot table, but have rather reduced the amount of items you get (ammo, weapons/armor and especially components) and significantly reduced the chance. So basically most places that you've looted before still have some chance of holding loot in future games (very few containers are fixed to be empty), but they won't give you large amounts of loot every time like they do now.

This, coupled with item durability cost penalty should make the game more challenging and force you to manage your resources more carefully as you should no longer have unlimited amounts of grenades, special blots/ammo, psi points, batteries, etc. When it comes the time to release the new version, I'll have to test this new economy carefully with a couple of playthroughs, though, to ensure that I haven't gone too far or not far enough. After that, I'll be very interested to hear from you guys as to what your experience was in this new economy.

Also, I've increased the difficulty of some encounters in the Old Junkyard (Depot A) and also did some bug fixing. In any case, here's the full list:


Alright, this is about all the major balancing, bug fixing, etc, I was planning to do for this update. Unless I come across something major, of course. The economy will probably need more balancing closer to new version release, but until them I'll be focusing on new content.
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: maheusz on March 01, 2013, 06:22:34 am
Welp, so it seems like we've to get used once again to being poor. Snap. And ending encounters will get even harder.

At least it seems like more viable alternative to invest into traps now and high 'run away' skills in order to kite enemies. I might do just that in the next build. I wonder if it's economically viable.
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: WolveNZ on March 01, 2013, 08:33:49 am
Quote
Reduced the value multiplier for certain crafted items (e.g. leather armor) in relation to their components; purchasing components from vendors and crafting them into finished items and reselling them should not be profitable (this would either force me to reduce the amount of components the merchants have or to reduce the restocking frequency and I don't want to do either); finding components and crafting them into items before selling them is profitable

Dont really like this at all, dosnt sound realistic to me and will prevent characters based less on gains though combat from progressing

Quote
Added more mutated dogs to Old Junkyard because why not
Quote
Increased the health of Mutated humans and restored them their normal movement points (was too easy to kite them)
Quote
Increased mutant dog health

Was I the only guy that really struggled to face off against these guys, even with the best gear I could get my hands on? I remember multiplier saves, traps and grenade spam :/
Might it be a bit much having more Mutant dog health, more Mutant Human health and more dogs?

Quote
When placing traps with AoE effect, their range will also be displayed; this should make it easier for players to prevent chaining their own traps and blowing themselves up Wile E. Coyote style.
This will be useful, used to have to use a Grenade AoE UI to setup mines as a work around

Quote
Increased base psionic power of psi beetles and their synergy bonus; also their armor and health a bit (hopefully I get to watch them actually kill someone now)
This should be nice, I hope. I remember them being easy prey on their own but if you got cocky and chased after one, and got a few on you you were in for a decent fight. But I think a slight boost will really help but might make the silent isle a bit tough'er
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: Styg on March 01, 2013, 12:19:20 pm
The game is not really balanced around having a complete non-combat character, nor is that in the plans. You should still get plenty of benefit from going crafting, but you won't be able to generate money from nothing.

As for Old Junkyard areas, I never really saw anyone struggle there. I think the major problem was the low movement speed of mutants and some glitches in their AI so that should change now. Btw, what build were you use when you fought them?
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: Ruvon on March 01, 2013, 03:33:05 pm
As for Old Junkyard areas, I never really saw anyone struggle there. I think the major problem was the low movement speed of mutants and some glitches in their AI so that should change now. Btw, what build were you use when you fought them?

I must say I'm in the same situation, these scumbags gave me hell of a fight and I was relieved when I killed the last one.

It wasn't a struggle, it was a nightmare.

So in my opinion you don't need to buff them too much :) please ^^

To answer your question adressed to someone else, my build was guns, guns and guns. With few points in traps and a lot of grenades.
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: screeg on March 01, 2013, 05:34:42 pm
I like challenging combat, so I'm glad it's going to be tough.  I said before I don't like the degrading armor/weapons thing, but since it's going to be in, I'm hoping that you don't go the Elder Scrolls route with reduced functionality (weapon damage for instance) for partially degraded equipment.

If you use a sword or whatever until it's broken or at 50%, and then it does less damage, that's fine.  But in Oblivion, if your weapon was at 90%, it would only do 90% of its potential damage, which is just bloody awful.

I have to say again, if you want to fix the economy one sensible way is to cut down on merchants buying ingredients and other crafting stuff.  A metal spring might be useful to a mechanic.  Doesn't mean a merchant is going to buy it.  To him, it's just junk.

Quote
Increased deterioration rate of melee weapons by 50% to somewhat balance out them not requiring ammo
This sounds terrible.  IMO, melee weapons are already balanced against ranged in that your enemy is standing right on top of you when you use them.  When you have to chase down five different guys with machine guns with your sledgehammer, you're not going to be patting yourself on the back for conserving ammo.
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: Major_Blackhart on March 01, 2013, 07:10:39 pm
The acid dogs don't bother me much with their health buffs, as my PC, Mortimer, didn't get messed up by the acid. However, the mutants messed him up in close range combat like a goddamn fiend.
If you're goingn to improve their health, at least make them worth more experience points, and pack in more normal gun toting mutants as well. That stuff is always fun. Or some different types of roving robots (if you've got them). I'd like to see a boss-type mutant somewhere as well wearing metal armor or maybe some regenerative armor.

Anyway, the degrading equipment I'm not a huge fan with regards to melee weapons degrading faster. And the damn psybeetles messed me up like crazy when they synergized man! But again, I was pure melee, with no ranged capability.

I'd like to see a reduction in some requirements for making stuff, but also I'd like to see cost bonus based on higher skill requirements - i.e. you create something that has a requirement of 60 vs 20, then the selling price should be MUCH higher.
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: WolveNZ on March 01, 2013, 07:49:41 pm
The game is not really balanced around having a complete non-combat character, nor is that in the plans. You should still get plenty of benefit from going crafting, but you won't be able to generate money from nothing.

As for Old Junkyard areas, I never really saw anyone struggle there. I think the major problem was the low movement speed of mutants and some glitches in their AI so that should change now. Btw, what build were you use when you fought them?

Running with a 8.6mm AR, Mk.IV Grenades, Mk.II traps, No points in PSY skills. about 40:40:20 Ratio of points spent in crafting : Combat : Other
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: JohnyCrown on March 03, 2013, 03:21:52 pm
I agree with a couple of the others that the Old Junkyard was really tough and I had a terrible time there.  IMO they should get a tad weaker and not stronger or at least keep them roughly the same.  Before this point the game is manageable and about the right difficulty then once you start fighting mutants and mutated dogs the difficulty skyrockets like a slap in the face.  In a sense it also forces the player to HAVE to have acid resistant equipment just to make it through there which in turn forces the player to need high crafting skills to make them as none of the shops sold anything like that.  IMO a game should never force a player to use a certain build just to make it through a certain area.

Many of the other changes/updates seem fine but I'm still lukewarm on the devalued crafting and weapon/armor degradation but will have to actually play the newer version to see how it all pans out.  I know you want to make the game harder and that's fine since its your game and all but I think having at least a couple different difficulty modes will cater to more players.  Maybe have a normal mode and a hard mode and award the players who choose hard mode and make it through a better ending or something. 

Just my two cents.  Excited to try the next version to see how it all works. 
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: Styg on March 04, 2013, 02:27:17 am
Alright, guys, I'll be careful with buffing the junkyard encounters. I will test the changes thoroughly with some less optimal builds before release. I never had problems with those myself, nor anyone I've watched play.

WolveNZ, I find it kinda strange you had trouble with AR build. Did you get full-auto feat?

Screeg, item degradation only starts affecting combat when below 35%. With weapons it reduces chance to hit and with armor it reduces the resistances it provides.

JohnyCrown, difficulty settings are a possibility in the future.

Major_Blackhart, items made from higher quality components (which also means higher skill requirements) do sell for more.
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: LazyMonk on March 05, 2013, 03:45:24 pm
Will you be adding weight to items and character weight capacity as well? (sorry if i missed it)

That might help the economy a little bit since you wont be able to carry all the loot from one area in just one trip.
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: WolveNZ on March 05, 2013, 05:59:52 pm
Oh god, please dont do that...

I remember playing STALKER, running back and foward for ages picking up guns and ammo and selling them.

if anything was to be done, I would have it so you have a set number of tiles in your Inventory, and some things take up more tiles. Would also allow for some cool looking flashy sprites for the bigger items as well. This would also work in well with having the accesable shelfs at your 'appartment' as well, being able to store items. But it may be a bit iffy and could cause the game to be bloody annoying


Ill just have a look at what i had Styg

Ok, no rapid fire perk

my guns were at 50, Grenade at 15, crossbow at 31 and melee at 44.
Strengh was at 6, Dex at 4, Aglity at 4, Con at 6, Perception at 7, Will at 7 and Intel at 8
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: LazyMonk on March 05, 2013, 08:30:17 pm
Oh god, please dont do that...

I remember playing STALKER, running back and foward for ages picking up guns and ammo and selling them.

Hehe was that on Shadow Of Chernobyl? I imagine you got the greed ending.  ;D
Forgetting STALKER, how did you feel about weight limits in other games, like: Fallout, Arcanum or any D&D based crpg?

if anything was to be done, I would have it so you have a set number of tiles in your Inventory, and some things take up more tiles. Would also allow for some cool looking flashy sprites for the bigger items as well. This would also work in well with having the accesable shelfs at your 'appartment' as well, being able to store items. But it may be a bit iffy and could cause the game to be bloody annoying

Do you find the tile limit superior to a weight limit? I usually prefer the later because adds more realism than the first.
With the tile limit carrying 17 Assault Rifles or 17 Syringes is exactly the same. With a weight limit there are more strategical approaches on how you manage your inventory. Imagine you are 15.kg away from going above your weight limit and you have to consider if you want to go for an extra 15.kg item or 3 5.kg items.

Without any limits to what you can carry, we can empty a whole dungeon into our Santa Claus bag and off to the shops we go.
And this feels kinda weird. I sometimes surprise myself with what i found on my inventory. "Oh i have one of those?"
When i open a container i dont have to bother to see what it is, or if it is even worth it. In the bag you go.

I can see how it can be annoying to some, as it is annoying having to repair my weapon and armor from time to time but this little annoyances help balancing the game's economy.
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: WolveNZ on March 06, 2013, 03:27:55 am
Haha, So true, and yes, I got the Greed.

I hated it though, I just felt really bad leaving all those guns out to rust!. Most of the time when I picked up Guns and ammo I didnt need I sell it off to NPC's to be nice! "Like heres a new gun dude, would give it to you but I cant 'cause game mechanics"!

But I think tile based systems are less annoying. and Weight limits arnt all realistic, unless you add stages of encumbrance due to weight.

But to be honest, I played Fallout.2, I didnt like it at all, the only other RPG games like UnderRail Ive played was Dink Smallwood, and fuck that was a great game! Dont remember a weight limit in that game.

Its all about balancing fun and realism. I know I just cant stand leaving stuff lying about. And having weight limits just makes it so you have to visit the same area time, and time, and time again to clear out any stuff gets bloody annoying.
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: LazyMonk on March 06, 2013, 02:25:08 pm
Oh boy, Dink Smallwood that brings back good memories. It was very fun indeed.
No, it didn't had a weight limit and i cant remember if it had a tile limit on your inventory.
The game didn't had many items, so unless you were picking nuts inventory management wasn't really an issue.

But I think tile based systems are less annoying. and Weight limits arnt all realistic, unless you add stages of encumbrance due to weight.
Yes encumbrance stages add depth as well. Many of the D&D based crpgs i played had this. You would become lightly encumbered, heavily encumbered and immobile as the last stage. The several weight limits were based on your character strength. The stronger he was the more you could carry.

Fallout's weight limit didnt had any stages as far as i remember. You would go from fine to immobile.
The weight limit was also based on your character strength and influenced by some traits and perks.
I remember that picking the trait small frame would reduce your carrying limit and picking perks like pack rat or strong back would boost it.

But to be honest, I played Fallout.2, I didnt like it at all...

Really?
I find Fallout to be very similar to Underrail. Even one of the characters i am playing on Underrail was based on a character i played with on Fallout. High Str and Con some heavy armor and a big sledgehammer  8)
Fallout 2 is somewhat a parody, a spin-off of Fallout 1. (At least that's how i see it.)
Mechanically Fallout 1 and 2 are basically the same with just some very minor differences.

If you have time, and interest, give the 1st Fallout a chance.  :D
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: Styg on March 06, 2013, 03:19:55 pm
Inventory limitations might happen at some point. I'm still thinking about the best way to implement it and how it should affect the dungeon crawling and the game in general.

f anything was to be done, I would have it so you have a set number of tiles in your Inventory, and some things take up more tiles. Would also allow for some cool looking flashy sprites for the bigger items as well.

This is one thing that's sure not to happen as that would require redoing a lot of graphics among other things.
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: Major_Blackhart on March 06, 2013, 03:35:34 pm
From my own standpoint, part of the enjoyment I get from the game is not so much managing my inventory, but from the feeling that I am kind of a scout, sent ahead of an advancing force.
That means that I spend long time away from home if I need to, and can survive on my own. Having certain limitations in inventory is a good thing, no doubt about it. But, in a dungeon crawler type like this, with loot dropped whenever you take out a human or mutated human, and sometimes with a dog or other creature, it makes the game a bit of a loot fest, and not in a bad way, I don't think.
Forcing the player to decide about what to carry in a loot fest can make things aggravating. Don't get me wrong, it's not such a bad thing. But forcing me to constantly return to shop to unload whenever I find something new that's out of my weight limit or inventory space can be annoying, especially since there's no teleportation spells or anything like that.
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: LazyMonk on March 06, 2013, 05:13:49 pm
Major_Blackhart, but no game forces you to go back and forth to sell more stuff. You chose to. A limited inventory system only forces a player to choose which items do you bring with, what items do you pick from your fallen enemies and to discourage players from taking everything.
Yeah its annoying but i guess that's the point of the system, to discourage you of doing such boring travels back and forth. You can also travel back and forth for that free healing at the Station and spare on bandages/health hypos but i bet most of you don't even if its the most economical option.

A way to fast travel to shops would take away some of the point of having a limited inventory system.

I am noticing that i am being very vocal about this :-[ so i have to add that i am fine with how the game the works right now.
I just thought of this since you can become quite rich so quickly breaking the economy to the point you can have 5 tiles with 999 Stygian Coins before you even find the.. ahem.. last quest item, and a limited inventory system might mitigate this a little bit.
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: joejoefine on March 07, 2013, 02:59:49 am
There seems to be some impression that making it harder to sell acquired loot is synonymous with requiring a player to be forced to make careful choices with their limited inventory.

I don't think this necessarily has to be the case. The system could be designed so that there is a fast travel option, but its only activated once all enemies have been cleared out of an area, so you can't abuse it to instantly change your inventory or visit the doctor.  After a while it could repopulate with critters/thugs etc., and after they've been cleared out you can fast travel again. Just like in Fallout, among other games (Arcanum); you can't travel in dangerous areas.

Or it could be a system where encumberance reduces your weapons and evasion skills significantly, so that its only tenable to carry more items when you're no longer in any imminent danger. I don't know if there really is any positive argument for making it more difficult for people to sell loot they find, in and of itself.  Knowing that people are going to try to make as much money as they can, assuming the items aren't junk or that there are very few numbers of them, then you know that they're going to, almost universally, go back to get more loot to sell at a shop. These are reasonable expectations of any gamer.

So its incumbent on game designers to find ways to make aspects of game play which are practically a necessity as non-tedious as possible, so long as it doesn't create problems in other areas (i.e. strategic management of inventory). Not that Styg is doing anything wrong, just wanted to contribute my opinion!
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: Hans_Sanitizer on March 07, 2013, 07:29:04 am
Just wanted to chime in on saying that the Junkyard was the most difficult part of the game for me, and that it wasn't possible to have sustained combat in any of the cases (made a build focused on crafting and using a laser pistol). I kept having to duck into another area and then come back after bandaging. There is no need to make this area harder in my opinion, in fact I found this area the most frustrating so far.

Everything prior to this area was a good level of difficulty where if I got stuck I found that planning out my attack better yielded results, but I finally resorted to cheap tactics when playing in the junkyard (back and forth between areas, and using up nades like crazy). I'm not nuts about the degradation of items, but if implemented properly it should be fun.

I disagree with those who say merchants should only be interested in particular weapons, if I was a merchant who sold plants and someone came up giving me a good deal on leather I wouldn't turn it down.

The game imo is difficult enough as it is, and while this might be a bold statement, in being the designer for the game, knowing the math behind your actions, everything is going to appear easier than it is.

This is the point where I would suggest considering user chosen difficulty scaling that would take into account inventory size limitation, buffing of the junkyard enemies (as well as others), items being scarce (from merchants and areas), as well as anything else you can think of.

I would consider the current level of difficulty of the game about at a "hard" setting for other games I've played, or at the very least slightly above "normal."

I would say that difficulty is not something this game is lacking in.
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: Major_Blackhart on March 07, 2013, 03:17:56 pm
I would honestly LOVE to see a junkyard boss, some sort of mutant who's stronger than the others, maybe not an acid mutant, but maybe some regular Junkyard mutant who's just managed to survive long enough to get that hard. Maybe some sort of badass with a regenerative bulletproof jacket and a laser pistol.
Something fun like that, really difficult, not necessary, but fun anyway.
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: x11 on March 07, 2013, 05:09:27 pm
I found junkyard hard as well. Especially the small zone on the right with the 5 human enemies (1 standing near fence looking south-west). It to me like 10 or more tries until I got trough (while not changing between zones). I was low on psi, however I didn't expect it to be that hard. I used 4x mine, 1x flashbang, 2x he, 1x fire psi ability and the rest pistol. The acid areas where hard as well. Maybe my char was not that well balanced... However, I guess I can agree with Hans_Sanitizer: "difficulty is not something this game is lacking in"
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: LazyMonk on March 07, 2013, 07:06:59 pm
There seems to be some impression that making it harder to sell acquired loot is synonymous with requiring a player to be forced to make careful choices with their limited inventory.
Not at all. The presence of a limited inventory might benefit a player to do some more careful choices than clicking the take all button, but it isn't forcing anything on the player. But its true that a limited inventory alone wont help much. It works better when combined with other restrictions like when you cant revisit the looted area. I personally don't think this would fit the Underrail setting much as it might spoil the exploration.
While playing fallout i had to pick what weapons and ammo i would bring with me around. I couldn't have all the firearms available with me and pick the best one for the occasion. These kind of choices come not from"making it harder to sell acquired loot" but from having a limited inventory system.

I don't think this necessarily has to be the case. The system could be designed so that there is a fast travel option, but its only activated once all enemies have been cleared out of an area, so you can't abuse it to instantly change your inventory or visit the doctor.  After a while it could repopulate with critters/thugs etc., and after they've been cleared out you can fast travel again. Just like in Fallout, among other games (Arcanum); you can't travel in dangerous areas.
Joejoefine, i am sorry for i expressed myself poorly. When i said:
A way to fast travel to shops would take away some of the point of having a limited inventory system.
I was referring to what Major_Blackhart said about the lack of a teleportation spell or something similar to reduce the boredom of traveling back and forth to sell sutff if there was a limited inventory system. This mean of quick travel would be an alternative to walking through all the areas until you got to a shop.
Fallout and Arcanum fast travel system were not an alternative way of travel. They were the only way you could travel from a town to another. You could not teleport yourself from the third level of the glow to the hub. The fast travel on those games was not designed to facilitate nor to impede looting, it was the only way of traveling between great distances.
Arcanum did had a teleportation spell, it was the 5th of the Conveyance spell college, and it did make looting remote areas easier.

In both these games fast traveling also led to random encounters. In these you would have to make choices about what would you loot because you couldn't come back later.

Knowing that people are going to try to make as much money as they can, assuming the items aren't junk or that there are very few numbers of them, then you know that they're going to, almost universally, go back to get more loot to sell at a shop. These are reasonable expectations of any gamer.

You seem to be describing the behavior and the expectations of a power gamer. Myself and a few friends i know, that play this genre of games, don't bother mostly revisiting dungeons to get all those longswords on the floor and that chainmail we may have left behind. I dont know how the universe of players feel about this though.
Yes it will be annoying but only if you set yourself the goal of selling everything you find, and you really don't have to. I dont know if any developer expects you too, since you will make enough money without doing in most of the games i have played.

Styg has said that we will have metro system that will allow us to quick travel between stations. That sounds
really good. Its a nice way of giving the impression that you are traveling far to another place without being tedious and still fitting the theme of the game.
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: WolveNZ on March 08, 2013, 04:29:09 am
Thinking about it, I think a Limited Innovatory would be nice, if done realistically. This would also maybe lead to more dynamic survival elements such as sleeping, eating and drinking that i think would work really well in this game. Making it more Survival based rather than combat based. Feeding the use of Cave Hoppers for meat (And with Item Degradation, for Cheap clothing)
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: ciox on March 18, 2013, 11:51:45 am
Hey there, I just want to make a small suggestion for pickpocketing, which works in a very traditional way right now, meaning you try and fail and immediately want to reload your save, this feels grindy and it can be done differently to remove the reloading impetus.
Basically just make it so you either can or can't pickpocket someone without chances, and your perception lets you know if you can. No more grinding.
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: Eliasfrost on March 18, 2013, 11:55:10 am
Hey there, I just want to make a small suggestion for pickpocketing, which works in a very traditional way right now, meaning you try and fail and immediately want to reload your save, this feels grindy and it can be done differently to remove the reloading impetus.
Basically just make it so you either can or can't pickpocket someone without chances, and your perception lets you know if you can. No more grinding.

That eliminates all consequences of a failed pickpocket attempt, I don't know if I agree with that.
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: ciox on March 18, 2013, 11:58:38 am
Hey there, I just want to make a small suggestion for pickpocketing, which works in a very traditional way right now, meaning you try and fail and immediately want to reload your save, this feels grindy and it can be done differently to remove the reloading impetus.
Basically just make it so you either can or can't pickpocket someone without chances, and your perception lets you know if you can. No more grinding.

That eliminates all consequences of a failed pickpocket attempt, I don't know if I agree with that.

But the consequence is usually being shot at by an important NPC, or starting a fight that 20 NPCs participate in, that's not a consequence it's a game over screen.
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: Eliasfrost on March 18, 2013, 12:15:11 pm
Hey there, I just want to make a small suggestion for pickpocketing, which works in a very traditional way right now, meaning you try and fail and immediately want to reload your save, this feels grindy and it can be done differently to remove the reloading impetus.
Basically just make it so you either can or can't pickpocket someone without chances, and your perception lets you know if you can. No more grinding.

That eliminates all consequences of a failed pickpocket attempt, I don't know if I agree with that.

But the consequence is usually being shot at by an important NPC, or starting a fight that 20 NPCs participate in, that's not a consequence it's a game over screen.

Whether it is 20 people ganging up on you or a guard escorting you to the station, it is still a consequence for your action. Having a skillcheck dictating the possibility to even perform the action is not only constrictive but it removes one whole dimension of immersion and makes pickpocketing dead and uninteresting. I rarely load a save when I fail a pickpocket attempt (I never pick someone in the middle of the street either, because that's bound to fail) because it adds a certain level of immersion when your actions leave you with the consequence of the person trying to get back to you for trying to steal his/her stuff directly out of her pocket, removing that would make pickpocketing one dimensional and uninteresting.
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: RawCode on March 19, 2013, 12:52:51 pm
static random where you cant reload to get other result is nice way to find fix this issue.
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: Eliasfrost on March 19, 2013, 01:16:55 pm
static random where you cant reload to get other result is nice way to find fix this issue.

Static random?
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: ciox on March 20, 2013, 07:25:13 am
static random where you cant reload to get other result is nice way to find fix this issue.
Yeah I can't believe I forgot about that, that is also a decent solution.
Right now you can also reload to get different items to spawn in lockers, with a huge potential difference in item quality between reloads.
It really would make a difference.
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: Styg on March 20, 2013, 07:56:00 am
static random where you cant reload to get other result is nice way to find fix this issue.
Yeah I can't believe I forgot about that, that is also a decent solution.
Right now you can also reload to get different items to spawn in lockers, with a huge potential difference in item quality between reloads.
It really would make a difference.

The random items are generated first time you enter the area.
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: ciox on March 20, 2013, 12:22:37 pm
static random where you cant reload to get other result is nice way to find fix this issue.
Yeah I can't believe I forgot about that, that is also a decent solution.
Right now you can also reload to get different items to spawn in lockers, with a huge potential difference in item quality between reloads.
It really would make a difference.

The random items are generated first time you enter the area.

Yeah, so if you have a save before the entrance to an area you can use it to walk in and see different items each time, individual areas can be pretty small. (not a bad thing)
What the other poster means by static random is you generate a seed for each new game, save it and use that one seed in the number generator of systems that shouldn't change their outcomes when you reload a save. Obviously you don't have to use the fixed seed for everything, you can exempt combat and other things easily.
Title: Re: Dev Log #14: Taking from the Rich
Post by: Fenix on May 11, 2013, 04:40:30 pm
Yes, since first version i saved game before first visiting Engineering and Shooting Floor, so it'd benice (for me) if game use seed, that generate item for all game, so i can not use this boring tactic.