Underrail Forum
Underrail => General => Topic started by: Mindless on March 27, 2015, 09:39:51 pm
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New system was made newbies life with underrail "mages" easier and in the same time harder at the high levels.
bla-bla-bla. My main reason for this topics is new psi costs rebalance.
Telekinetic Punch and Pyrokinesis costs 50(60 with Psychosis) PSI points - 1/2 of "new" PSI bar(100). All others(that i have obtained) costs a lot less...
Cryostasis cost - 10, Forcefield - 20, Electrokinesis - 15(14?), Neural Overload - 5 (xD)
So Cryostasis, Neural Overload and Electrokinesis - generally "spam" abilities for now(psi regen is 20/turn)
P.S. I can somehow understand Pyrokinesis cost but Punch!?
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Well punch can be quite potent with the force user feat but yeah 50 is way too high. Kinda surprised that electro is considered spam, as it is a free stun every turn. If the aim is to make all psi users feel the pain, they should switch electro and punches' costs, as this also hits psycho builds without.. feeling weird xD On the other hand, that would make killing dreadnaughts with a pure psi build literally impossible so... I dunno lol.
Pyro kinesis.. I dunno that seems high. I get that it can seriously mess with people if you have the pyro feat... but still. It is very luck based since maybe nobody gets flamed :/ On the other hand, a metathermics psi band with muffler can cut that down quite a bit for those who like metathermics feats.
Anyways, looks like electronics/biology and int 7 is a staple now for pure psi. Can't not have a muffler xD
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I don't think anyone's complaining, just talking about it. Honestly, non-psi users might be more interesting now that thick skull suddenly made light armor "non-subterfuge, non-psi" builds not terrible.
Edit: ugh, this is awful.. I want to playtest psi, but I think the other builds are more interesting lol
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The general idea is that CC abilities would cost little to medium AP and a lot of PSI, while the primary attacking abilities would cost little PSI (making them spammable) and would have their AP cost balanced by damage-per-turn output. Now, I know that there are abilities that have multiple purposes, number of targets, targeting mechanics, secondary effects, etc, so it's not as clean cut as this, but this is the general guiding principle.
Regarding T-Punch, I personally have tested the new psi early game using a Psychokinetic-Melee build and I feel that the costs are about right. When specced right, T-Punch acts as a powerful nuke as well as CC so I think that cost is justified.
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Regarding T-Punch, I personally have tested the new psi early game using a Psychokinetic-Melee build and I feel that the costs are about right. When specced right, T-Punch acts as a powerful nuke as well as CC so I think that cost is justified.
Neural - 5, Cryostasis - 10, Punch - 50.
What is the logic here?! yes, T-Punch slightly more powerfull than other nukes but! Witout feat it is just med damage with stun and it has short range. and 3t colldown. It can't be so expensive!
Inbalanced cost it any way. 30 - max for this one. Pyrokinesis is far more deserves 50 cost than Punch.
All of a sudden, decreased psi cost became a desirable stat instead of something that might save you a psi hypo or two in the long run... :P
You can get those 50s down to 33 or even less fairly easily with muffled headband and psi beetle armor. Then there's also the new neurology feat.
I will better up my headband with crit+crit damage. +15% crit from Psyshosis and +30% from the new feat (at 30% life) and you can go hunting b*tches.
Psi-Beatle is ok but all costs you a precious skill points.
and Metathermics in general is the weakest psi discipline.
Ahem, not the weakest one
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Now that stasis is 45 and pyrokinesis is 50, I think it may be best to completely forego metathermics on a pure will character. Anyone have the same feeling? You need electrokinesis for bots if you have no combat skills, and you need thought control because.. well thought control. I'd rather stick the points into throwing or dodge or crafting. Not to say metathermics is bad these days, just bad on a 10+ will character. I can totally see it being used on any other character.
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What that "CC" thing is?
Neural - 5, Cryostasis - 10, Punch - 50.
What is the logic here?! yes, T-Punch slightly more powerfull than other nukes but! Witout feat it is just med damage with stun and it has short range. and 3t colldown. It can't be so expensive!
You're right cost gap is very large, but it can be solved in other way - Neural - 10, Cryostasis - 15, Punch - 45. ))
This gap feel not that terrible, huh? )
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I think all discipline can be balanced further, like - Psychokinesis is a strong damage source only at close range Metatermics is a crowd control for robots, Thought Control - same for living beings.
Actually it is true, but damage dissipating with range can be added for Psychokinesis.
We need to do more specialized for each discipline that had to use it all.
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Well, it's a matter of psi points. The two biggies of metathermics have mainly been stasis and kinesis. If those are disproportionally expensive, then they drop me from the same psi pool that I can use mind control and psycho. So I think it's best to dump it entirely. When it comes to being able to use the psi in super rare circumstances, then I'd rather have some other ability, like throwing grenades accurately (one molotov = one pyrokinesis) or dropping everyone's skills by 50% with my super high will intimidation.
Dumping it also has some advantages beyond skill use. It now somewhat pays to use a psychokinesis focused headband later in the game and a thought control focus in the beginning, as opposed to uni-psi.
Furthermore, you could just stop at 35, then you still get the stasis, but dump the now less useful pyro. Which is sort of what I have to do since I don't want to reroll -.-
However, if I were to make a more varied psi character, one that stayed at will 8-12, I'd probably forego thought control and go psycho and metathermics.
But who wants to give up LoC enrage bursts :D
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All of a sudden, decreased psi cost became a desirable stat instead of something that might save you a psi hypo or two in the long run... :P
I can't agree with this =P (except some of hard long battles, which I can probably count on my fingers).
You can get those 50s down to 33 or even less fairly easily with muffled headband and psi beetle armor. Then there's also the new neurology feat.
Beetle armor is mandatory for good "pure psi-build"(cuz it have no good alternatives); muffle(i prefer crit damage+chance) and neurology(many other more interesting feats to take) is not.
Keep in mind that the point of the new system was to curb the excessive CC spam that made competent psionics completely untouchable. So far the new system feels reasonable to me, but I agree that the costs could probably use tweaks. Pyrokinesis wasn't one of the problematic skills (its not a guaranteed CC) and Metathermics in general is the weakest psi discipline. I'm not sure what's going on with Punch either, since it's more of a heavy nuke than CC. Electrokinesis is better for stunning anyways and it provides aoe damage while at it. Punch is just a nice opener with premeditation.
With the right feats and good capacity of psi-busters you will not feel difference.
Neural Overload - 5, Cryokinesis - 10, Electrokinesis - 15.
I suppose that's the logic here :P Psychokinesis actually got the strongest spammable ability.
???
Which one would you say is the weakest?
Thought Control in my build is most useless one, i prefer Psychokinesis+Metathermics combo =P I'm really not a fan of long scheme like "bla-bla-bla i will stun one enemy, than debaff him, than DoT and THAN i will kill him". My plan is easy "I see enemy? i kill enemy!".
mb i will post my favorite psi-build later :)
I think it may be best to completely forego metathermics on a pure will character. Anyone have the same feeling?
True, in my opinion you can more easily forego Thought Control =P
Regarding T-Punch, I personally have tested the new psi early game using a Psychokinetic-Melee build and I feel that the costs are about right. When specced right, T-Punch acts as a powerful nuke as well as CC so I think that cost is justified.
In the Psi-Melee hybrid build you can even put T-Punch for 100 psi-points cost. For hybrid and pure builds must be some kind of difference in price.(cuz they all have the same 100 points psi-bar)
I played a bit with my universal Psi-Build and have some suggestions for Psi-balance:
A) Psi Costs Overhaul (Primary):
Cost fore psi-spells:
Neural Overload 5 -> 8(10)
Cryokinesis 10 -> 12(15)
Force Field 20 -> 25
Telekinetic Punch 50 -> 40 (mb 50 with Force User, he-he).
Cryostasis 50 -> 40
Pyrokinetic Stream 25+10 -> 40+10
Electrokinesis 15 -> 30(35) but no further cooldown cuz it's primary anti-robot spell.
Can't say anything about Thermodynamic Destabilization(cuz it's bugged) and Telekinetic Proxy(cuz it's weird) and Thought Control mental powers.
B) Psi Pool Overhaul (Primary):
- 100 psi is basic value on start;
- +10(5) psi for each level;
- +10 psi for each point in Will above 5;
- -10 psi for each point in Will below 5;
Why mighty Ezra must have the same psi-pool as some weak willed(3 will) newbie(1st level) who just started his way?
C) Psi Regen Overhaul (Secondary):
- 10(or 5) basic regen for every characters;
- +1(or 0.5) psi regen for each point in Will above 5;
- +1(or 0.5) psi regen for each point in Will below 5;
OR
- Make it percent based value like 5%(for example) of yours psi-pool but only up to 75%(for example). At Super-super Max(500 pool - 25 lvl and 20 will) it will be 25/turn.
Current regen is a bit much for now for the start, i think.
D) Some feats rework (Secondary):
- Make Shroomhead feat to be like "the collector's feat". For every picked mindshroom you'll get +2 max psi and some psi-rerestoration effect.
- Make the Neurology feat is % based or improve it effect.
E) Some more high lvl psi-powers mb? There is even no bio, energy, acid damage type abilities and small amount of electro(neural is not exacly eletric), mechanical(only T-Punch and Cryostasis is 1/3 mechanical) damage type powers.
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Well, on a pure will, if you're totally munchkining and don't want to die much, thought control is the one to keep just because of LoC. LoC + enrage/mental breakbdown/ fear is just devastating. It does prolong the fight, but you always win it against non-bots. If enrage or LoC get nerfed, then it's not quite so obvious which psi discipline to dump. But dumping one does make sense because of the quite limited psi pool.
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Speaking from personal taste. I don't like dumping any psi skill at all. The greatest advantage of psi is how it adapts to all situation and where psi fails (electrokinesis, I'm looking at your cooldown!) the crossbow with the special bolts covers it.
I haven't played in a while... Or rather I tried in the previous patch but meh, you all know my reason so I won't beat a dead horse. The way Psi is now sounds like it's getting quite underpowered with an incredibly limited psi pool and very high costs of some spells. When a hybrid of sniper/gunner with a bit of grenade skills already oneshots mostly everything and has a powerfull AoE and other builds like pistol builds and melee builds incredibly strong and in many ways can be overpowered. It feels like Psi just keeps getting more and more restrictions for no reason.
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Heh, well I think it's starting to show how long it's been since you've played ;) Grenades are pretty awful after level 16 or so, though they're at least worth throwing I guess ;) Grenadier is nice I guess for the ability to emp dreadnaughts faster.
And yeah before this patch, going triple psiker on 10+ will was a no brainer. Now? Really hard to say, at the very least it makes sense to not make all three, probably just 2, although TC is pretty worthless if it isn't maxed.
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Yeah I really don't know the usefulness of grenades now. Before they were pretty good. Now I am not sure. Are the mk5 grenades that bad though? I know you can't buy them but they should deal a lot of damage if you can craft them.
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They look great on paper but that's about it. By the time you get them, NPCs diverge into two categories: those with insane evasion, and those with heavy armor. Both mitigate grenade damage to zilch. It is funny to stun light armored guys and instagib them with a mark V, though ;)
Oddly enough, by the time high explosive grenades start getting of use, incendiary grenades basically overpower them in every way.
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Well, guess it's time for the grenades to get a look at then.
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Has it been that long already? Damn! I'm getting old!
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Gas grenades are indeed awesome. They're like the poor man's traps.
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Gas grenades are indeed awesome. They're like the poor man's traps.
Now there's a feat idea for throwing+traps! Throwing Traps - lets you arm traps in remote locations simply by throwing them there! (thrown traps are easier to detect)
Seriously though that would be silly :P
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OExSwGuQW7Q
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Grenades are not enough powerful? O__O
Are you f... serious?! Frag Grenades own everything for just 15 ap(!!!) that doesn't have good mechanical resistance.
And if you get "Three-Pointer" Feat all your enemies will be doomed =P
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Really? There is a pretty sharp decline in grenade damage when facing level level 20s (15s and lower get blown to bits, though). I swear I'm lucky to get 200 damage or so when throwing a mark V on anything if they aren't stunned.
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I'll be honest here: The psi changes happened because a naked pure psionic with nothing but the 3 psi skills and maxed will could complete the entire game without ever taking any damage. You could easily keep all enemies out of action until you kill them, thus being effectively immortal. Yeah, it was kind of ridiculously overpowered. Since psionics always hit and maxed will pretty much guarantees your CC won't be resisted, there wasn't any room for random chance ruining your day either. With no risk at all, it was boring to play.
Completely agree. I love psikers, and want to have a fun from playing with that build.
No challenge?---> no fun.
Psyker must be nerfed to hell. )
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Well the debated problem of Psikers was always. They either take no damage or they just die. Psikers have no armor and no dodge/evasion. they have low amounts of health too. So unless their CC is god like to be able to survive they'll probably die in a hit or two of anything that attacks them.
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"Psikers have no armor and no dodge/evasion. they have low amounts of health too"
I've never played a psiker like that -.- They're actually the one class of playing style that used to benefit from having evasion, as LoC was the only way to survive with light armor before thick skull. So all of my psikers were 9 str 9 con or 6 agility 10 con.
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And will 0 probably...
When I do a Psiker I get 10 will and i'll only ever raise will since I want max damage and no chance whatsoever for the enemy to be able to resist the stuns and whatnot.
The places where a Psiker more easily dumps stats tends to be strenght and constitution. You can get some agillity or dexterity (not really both unless it'sa minal bonus to each) and it probably never is a bad idea to get something like 7 perception + snooping to get all secrets and of course, perception is needed for the crossbow and those special bolts can save your life.
As for having evasion/dodge. I never have space for it at all. The 3 disciplines + stealth + lockpick and hacking + crossbows only leave you one option left. Usually I use the last one for persuasion.
Now some people don't care for lockpick and hacking, some won't even care for having a crossbow. That's alright, but I find that not having a backup weapon usually backfires spectacularly and of couse, I cannot pass the loot. I'd litereally go insane.
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Well epeli, if you're so smart then tell me how do you do a psiker with any kind of survivabillity at all bearing in mind that 10 will and always raise will.
the 3 psi disciplines
A secondary weapon
steath because you're not exactly in metal armor about to face tank anything.
lockpicking and hacking to grab all the loot.
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Well, I meant more "tank" not "survive" :) I once played without any fighting at all xD No combat no psi for the lulz :D It actually wasn't very fun, reloading a zillion times when bumping into mutant dogs kinda sucks xD But it had it's moments like pickpocketing a live enemy for a key >:D
Edit: but anyways.. I think we might have drifted off topic a wee bit :D
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Edit: but anyways.. I think we might have drifted off topic a wee bit :D
That's right. Eternal Battle of epeli vs Elhazzared xD
Completely agree. I love psikers, and want to have a fun from playing with that build.
No challenge?---> no fun.
Psyker must be nerfed to hell. )
They had enough challanges from the start =P (Hard time against robots, many skill points to place in - we talk about pure psi-builds, hard start, etc.)
It's the common rule of the Good RPG "Mages" - hard start, easy endgame. And now i became even easier to play with(for me).
Psikers have no armor and no dodge/evasion.
That's wrong. I have very good survivability with my Psionic Vest(only snipers and crits generally penetrates armor).
Really? There is a pretty sharp decline in grenade damage when facing level level 20s (15s and lower get blown to bits, though). I swear I'm lucky to get 200 damage or so when throwing a mark V on anything if they aren't stunned.
Is it bad? To damage pack of enemies for 200 damage? Even for 150? for 15 ap?
So all of my psikers were 9 str 9 con or 6 agility 10 con.
I think this is more a melee+psi build, that's not a pure psi-build(Psi-abilities as secondary like stuns, slows, etc.).
str 3
dex 4
agi 6
con 3
per 3
will 15
int 8
Terrible stat allocation, in my opinion =_=
effective skill levels:
hacking & lockpicking 100
mechanics ~120
electronics ~150
chemistry 20
biology 70
tailoring ~120
psi skills ~250
persuasion ~150
That's pretty ok) My skill-set is slightly different but...
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Well I consider anything that ends up with at least 13 will and maxed triple psi a psiker xD If it also bashes bots with a sledgehammer, whatever.
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They had enough challanges from the start =P (Hard time against robots, many skill points to place in - we talk about pure psi-builds, hard start, etc.)
You're kiddin me, good sir. Robots? The one grenades I picked up except flashbang was EMP.
You even don't need to buy grenades - you can find so many of them as you needed (and I think it's bad by design, player should feel shortage in equipment and weapon he can find, so he would be forced to buy and spent his bloody sharons).
Hard start? What, first hour? After that he is like steamroller.
I still think psi-disciplines should be more specialized, less universal.
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Well epili. If you can run with that and not take damage you must be incredibly good because with 5 str, 5 con, in fact mostly everything at 5 and 13 will while using a carrier vest (which is at least better than leather armor) I was getting owned time and time again in Depot A, savescumming a lot to get through it.
Attack them from outside vision range? Yeah right. No spell of mine even had the range to attack them from outside their visual range. Once I got in their visual range they moved almost into melee and that is at maximum ranges.
Let's talk about situations where you cannot do that. Sure you can try the stand around the corner, iniciate combat and move into LoS and start casting. The only problem is that you are not likelly to even kill a single enemy in the first round and more often than not you have 4+ enemies and only 2 CC abillities that you can throw in a single round, after that only 1 CC per round until electrokinesis is out of cooldown... Really I was only ever semi safe against humans when I LoC + bilocation them and then cast the force wall to prevent from being attacked while they died to the illusions. Even then if a sniper survived and could get a shot on me it would usually oneshot me anyway, even with 5 con, even with a carrier vest.
Now your build is definitly not up to spec against robot. You have one good spell, the rest are not that damaging. they can help but they won't do much and your spell has a cooldown. Sure you can use EMP grenades and savescum as much as you like until you start hitting and between the two of them, maybe it is enough, But you shouldn't have to relly on savescumming to get through a situation. If you have a crossbow with special bolts however, you are much safer.
So I need a secondary weapon and stealth makes a huge difference too to get the right engagement angle on the enemy.
Also you listed 11 different skills. While yes, eventually you'll stop needing to up some skills and can start getting other ones. At the begining and for possibly over half your leveling time you cannot do this so you are stuck for at least the first half of the game with 8 skill. 3 of them go into psi, 2 of them into loot related stuff and probably you want another weapon and sneak. In my experience it is needed.
So no, I don't think psi characters are easy mode, I've had far more success and easy gameplay with the character I had made that used assault and sniper rifles with grenades as a secondary weapon as well as being able to craft grenades... Yes, you could get mk5 easily back then, I realise this, but it's still going to be a lot easier to roll outthis way than it is with a psi character. The difference between the both of them was not small at all, it was abismal. my sniper I never really cared, I steamrolled everything without taking any damage. In fact the only time I died was when I got distracted and a sniper one shot me after the gang showdown in the junkyard. I wasn't expecting to be an enemy there, was unning around without stealth and it got the jump on me and oneshot me.
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When the armor you're offered is. Regular leather armor which is inferior to carrier vest even against against pretty much everything. The carrier vests or the metal which is not going to work for me due to the limited strenght. Yeah, I'll take the carrier vest since it's the best option!
I actually meant aggro range by vision range. pretty much almost everywhere in depot A if I can see the enemy i'm in enemy aggro range. There are a few exceptions here and there but where there were exceptions not even moving and attacking was good enough.
So you will explain me how in the hell you can throw all of those spells in a single round because with the exception of neural overload which is dirty cheap, I tend to be able to do 2 spells, 3 at most if I'm using cheaper spells! Also I don't consider fear inducing spells much of a CC. Sure you can make enemies flee but making enemy flee in almost all situation only made things worse. First I can't even get to the enemy to kill it as it spends the whole movement allowance runing and second, it tends to aggro more packs as the enemy flees near them and pretty soon I'm being run down by douzens of enemies at the same time. Pretty much only used that as a last resort when I knew there was no way the fleeing enemy would aggro anyone else.
Electrokinesis has cooldown. It has always had, 3 turns I belive. That has always been the huge problem of that spell. You cannot even kill a robot with it in a single turn though you deal a good amount of damage and stun it. T-punch can only be cast once per round too. CC is limited and before you say that it was the old psikers. I did played a bit of the previous patch, enough to get to the GMS and nearly complete it (just didn't killed the boss at the end) and yes, this remained true at all times. One T-punch only and one E-kinesis every 3 rounds!
Yes, crossbows aren't excelent, but they are one extra CC and one extra antibot weapon. Sure you can run and drop a grenade at point black. In some situations!
And again, no, the sniper + assault rifle + grenades was much more imba. In fact with the old crafting specs for grenades you could pretty much run everything through without breaking a sweat or even taking damage. lone targets or small groups, snipe them out easily. One lone guy gets close, open full auto on him. Big groups or incredibly tough things? Throw a MK5 and everything will die! Just take stealth to engage optimally and it was the strongest build ever. All combats were over in 2 to 3 rounds at best with no damage taken or minimal damage taken.
I won't comment on your disreguards of something I said as BS. If you don't want to take it seriously then don't.
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Premeditation yeah, it's something you get a bit later on I did remember using it though only works on the first round of combat... As for tranquillity, never cared for it because it requires me to be at full health and something that happens often is taking a shot or some sort of damage from something so I always felt it was a wasted skill... Psycosis can be good yes, but it might also bite you in the ass with the pornographic psi cost of some abillities now and spamabillity is a necessity after all.
You are right, it doesn't, it does costs too much AP to cast. I was confusing with the T-punch which has the 3 turn cooldown. Either way it's one CC that is only showing up every 3 rounds.
I don't belive I have that many other options really. Like I said, fear inducing stun is not really viable for me in most situations. If I already need more than 2 people stunned in a round I certainly do not need a third one running around and aggroing several mobs.
It doesn't matter that my experience is limited by what I saw 2 years back. That part of the game is still there isn't it? While my Psy character had difficulties with even more than just using psi abillities. My sniper (I'll just call it sniper for short) would deal with everything without so much as giving a shit.
So I have not played to level 20 and above (with the now extended max level). i still managed to get a lot of the good combos going already. My psyker was level 16 which pretty much meant it had all psi feats that I ever needed. My sniper was either 14 or 15 and it pretty much also had all the feats that I wanted to get on it. So there are a few more now yes, especially with this last patch which added a ton of goodies. It doesn't means that what was there before isn't anymore and it doesn't means that what is there is any easier. In fact if I judge by the slightly different start it should probably be either as hard or harder (judging by the early azuridae quest)... That is to say if I made a character with the same specs (ok some minimal differences to reflect patch changes) I'd get to the depot A and have EXACTLY the same problems as I had before. I'd still have the same spells, deal about the same damages, have about the same amount of CC and the enemy would be at least as tough and as in larger numbers as before.
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The thing is that the build you posted was in all aspects inferior to mine. It doesn't surprise me because as you did say, you actively tried to gimp the stats as much as possible. I still had most things you had. Granted i don't use tranquillity because I feel it wouldn't last very long. I still rarely had enough CC except if I'm fighting humans and using bilocation + force wall to block myself outof combat while the illusions kill or nearly kill everything. My Psyker died many times and when it didn't died it took lots of damage. By comparison, my sniper/grenadier build would barely get touched.
Where I want to get with this is simple. While a step in the right direction with psi regenerating overtime the psi costs with the max psi you are ever allowed to are probably very problematics at higher levels considering that psikers are the most squishy builds. On the other hands, guns are getting even stronger. To me it feels like giving more power to whom has most and taking from who has less. That's the whole point.
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Again, the build isn't bad. As far as combat goes I should have a much superior combat. I had all you had plus stealth and crossbows and it still wasn't easy at all!
Yes psykers were good in some situations but they compared poorly to other possible choices. This update makes those other options stronger and nerfs the psykers.
And no, I don't play the game right now (I did played a bit of last patch) because of the reason we already know which make the game unfun to play for me.
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*yawn* so anyways.
I am curious actually, have others dropped a psi discipline because of the patch? I got bored playing psiker so I tried the assault build instead, and I don't really have time to finish my earlier psiker. My psi-hybrids haven't been affected at all.
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You're kiddin me, good sir. Robots? The one grenades I picked up except flashbang was EMP.
NO, I'm not kidding here! Grenades?! +Throwing skill?! should I spend more points on any useless things!? Mb melee and guns? We have already spent 3 pack of skill points for psi-disciplines.
You even don't need to buy grenades - you can find so many of them as you needed (and I think it's bad by design, player should feel shortage in equipment and weapon he can find, so he would be forced to buy and spent his bloody sharons).
Old MK4-5(mb some MK4 from the endgame faction shops) grenades are not being sold and no new 0.1.14 grenades.
Hard start? What, first hour? After that he is like steamroller.
Yes it is called the hard start. And not only first hour, You in deep need of a good CONSTANT source of psi-busters. Maybe for mid-game this is not a problem but for early-game without investing in pickpocket and mercantile(obvious) it will be hard times.
And yes, with simple "Pistoletto+Grenades" build you will have more free skill points, easiest start and no economical problem, and late game for me near the same.
I still think psi-disciplines should be more specialized, less universal.
More specialized?! It's a completly analog of "Magic RPG system" and the point of magic is to have opportunities to do "magic".
You can go into one discipline, craft psionic headband with only 1 discipline mod and get more bonuses from it.
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Looks like some kind of braine fever. ::)
NO, I'm not kidding here! Grenades?! +Throwing skill?! should I spend more points on any useless things!?
You don't need Throwing for this, just as I doesn't need it. Catch bot while wall behind him, be close.
Yes it is called the hard start. And not only first hour, You in deep need of a good CONSTANT source of psi-busters. Maybe for mid-game this is not a problem but for early-game without investing in pickpocket and mercantile(obvious) it will be hard times.
I never have "hard times", all psi-busters you'll need you can find or buy with start money.
Hard start - it's a Feline Wizard in DCSS, that's HARD START.
And yes, with simple "Pistoletto+Grenades" build you will have more free skill points, easiest start and no economical problem, and late game for me near the same.
Game consist not only from "start", it is also "middle" and "finish". Pistol+Granade sucks compared to Psi.
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Game consist not only from "start", it is also "middle" and "finish". Pistol+Granade sucks compared to Psi.
I'll admit that psi has superior CC, but I've been getting crits in excess of 800 damage with my pistol build in this update.
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So what? I aggroed all Junkyard and survived, that's psiker's strenght.
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Looks like some kind of braine fever. ::)
How sweet! And where is my
good sir.
??? =(
You don't need Throwing for this, just as I doesn't need it. Catch bot while wall behind him, be close.
Sorry, but i must decline your generous offer. (With ~15% hit chance with granade you either miss, or drop it into your feet OR with some luck and save-load you can eventually hit the target.)
I never have "hard times", all psi-busters you'll need you can find or buy with start money.
And how many psi-busters will you buy with your "start money" ?
Hard start - it's a Feline Wizard in DCSS, that's HARD START.
We talk about THIS game and it char builds. What build will have more hard times then pure psi-caster?
Game consist not only from "start", it is also "middle" and "finish". Pistol+Granade sucks compared to Psi.
I mentioned about "start" because obviosly it is the harder part of the game(and of the Psi-casters life) oO
Pistol+Grenades can be superior to the psi-caster build in many situations.
I'll admit that psi has superior CC, but I've been getting crits in excess of 800 damage with my pistol build in this update.
And this is more than you can hit by any psi-force. And 800 - is not the highest one with the new crit power feat...
So what? I aggroed all Junkyard and survived, that's psiker's strenght.
On what level?! On 6th level? oO
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A couple of things - EMP grenades can be dropped at your feet without harm as long as you're not wearing a powered-up shield.
On the broader point though about the ramifications of the changes to psi, specifically regen vs. having to use psi boosters:
I can understand why this was done, but it has thrown the concept of economising out of the window for psi builds. I played the earlier alpha versions quite a bit, and ran quite a few psi builds back then. The psi booster requirements were actually pretty much equivalent to ammo requirements for guns users and/or the cost of grenades for throwers. Consider that each 7.62mm bullet costs something like 28cr (iirc) and these costs quickly add up. In the past, throwing out a cryokinesis bolt was roughly in the same ballpark costwise as shooting .44 ammo iirc. This made sense from a balance perspective, because you got similar levels of damage per money unit.
I just tried out a fresh psi build and the difference cost wise is night and day - you can throw around whatever stuff you like, rarely have to use psi boosters, and can easily sell all the ammo you collect because its no use to you.
Perhaps in the long term though this makes no real difference - you end up swimming in cash after a point anyway. However, whereas in the early game a guns user has to balance the ammo he uses with cost in mind, the psi user is now completely free of this type of thinking. I think maybe its a step too far in the other direction really.
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A couple of things - EMP grenades can be dropped at your feet without harm as long as you're not wearing a powered-up shield.
YEAH, i can agree with this, but come close to robots not always can be the best idea. I talk about some hard-one(like Dreadnoughts or Plasma-turrels, or even pack of plasma walkers that can one hit you!)because one or two poor robots can be killed by T-Punch + Electrokinesis.
On the broader point though about the ramifications of the changes to psi, specifically regen vs. having to use psi boosters:
I can understand why this was done, but it has thrown the concept of economising out of the window for psi builds. I played the earlier alpha versions quite a bit, and ran quite a few psi builds back then. The psi booster requirements were actually pretty much equivalent to ammo requirements for guns users and/or the cost of grenades for throwers. Consider that each 7.62mm bullet costs something like 28cr (iirc) and these costs quickly add up. In the past, throwing out a cryokinesis bolt was roughly in the same ballpark costwise as shooting .44 ammo iirc. This made sense from a balance perspective, because you got similar levels of damage per money unit.
Mmmmm I cannot agree with all the points - damage from .44 bullet is higher than from cryokinesis. But overall it's true.
I just tried out a fresh psi build and the difference cost wise is night and day - you can throw around whatever stuff you like, rarely have to use psi boosters, and can easily sell all the ammo you collect because its no use to you.
Yes that's it! I used about ~15 busters for all my game in the new run.
Perhaps in the long term though this makes no real difference - you end up swimming in cash after a point anyway. However, whereas in the early game a guns user has to balance the ammo he uses with cost in mind, the psi user is now completely free of this type of thinking. I think maybe its a step too far in the other direction really.
Well, Styg said that the new psi-system will be balanced and i think that the current regen of psi will be nerfed a bit.
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Its a horribly inelegant idea, but if psi costs are to be meaningful, then one approach would be to have a 'psi reservoir' that works like the old non-regenerating system. Your current psi is refilled from that reservoir, at whatever rate is considered balanced (20 per round may be fine under this system). However, when your reservoir runs out, you no longer get the top up each round. Under this set up, psi boosters would work by first refilling your active psi (up to the max of 100 or 115 with appropriate headband) and then whatever was leftover would go to refill the reservoir.
This way, you'd limit the amount of psi that could be thrown around round by round, but keep psi as a costly resource that has to be filled up by using credits.
The psi reservoir could be set to something like 50 x Willpower say, and if you wanted to reward high Will you could perhaps make psi boosters provide Psi equal to 20 x Willpower rather than the flat 100 (or whatever it is, I forget offhand) as it currently stands.
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Well it sounds a bit complicated, and tbh, should the early game really be difficult credit wise? It's bad enough that new players tend to get stuck, as there is no replenishable source of credits. Maybe in a roguelike that's fine, but this is a story driven game. Casual resetting shouldn't be the norm.
Besides, veterans of the game never had problems with psi boosters. Just use a gun with 0 guns skill for rathounds (well, after rathounds became less hardcore anyways >:D). Got past the rathounds? Do kolmeir run at level 4 for infinite petty cash.
However, I think perhaps a nice simpler solution would be to have psi max and regen based on will and only will (not level): the lower maximum in the beginning may lead to needing psi boosters frequently in tough battles for a quick boost.
Example: psi max = 35 + Will*5; regen = Will*1.5
3 Will: 50 Psi, 4 regen
10 Will: 85 Psi, 15 regen
15 Will: 110 Psi, 22 regen
This also makes will no longer a complete dump stat for hybrids, and it also balances out the now harder end game that psionics have (disregarding enrage anyways heh...)
Alternatively (liking this), also base it on will and level like in the old days, but to a massively lower degree than earlier. Regen would be will only I think, as it would make will important for longer fights while keeping the CC burst difficult for anyone.
Example: psi max = 40 + Will*5 + Level/2; regen = (Will - 2)*2
3 Will:
-Level 1: max = 55; regen = 2
-Level 10: max = 60; regen = 2
-Level 25: max = 67; regen = 2
10 Will:
-Level 1: max = 90; regen = 16
-Level 10: max = 95; regen = 16
-Level 25: max = 102; regen = 16
15 Will:
-Level 10 (theoretical): max = 120; regen = 26
-Level 25: max = 137; regen = 26
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I think we're talking cross purposes here: I think that free psi regen puts psi characters outside of the game economy for all intents and purposes at low levels, whereas other characters have to spend money on bullets and/or item degradation. This acts as a balancing factor, e.g. switching to .44 or 9mm ammo too early is tricky both in terms of availability and in terms of cost. There is no such issue for psi characters under the changed system, and worse, at low levels something like cryokinesis outdamages any realistic gun option available to low level characters, and it does this for essentially no resource cost (plus it can't miss and has a huge range for the icing on the cake).
Tweaking psi regen rates is aimed at balancing how psi is used in combat, but it doesn't really address the economic issue at all. Furthermore, making psi characters essentially unplayable unless you go with a starting will of 10 is bad design; you don't need to start a gun or xbow character with 10 Per, nor a melee with 10 in str or dex (if anything, this may well be suboptimal with the changes made to the feats) and I don't see why psi users should labour under that burden.
In some ways, its an attempt to inflict a classes on a skills-based system. Requiring such heavy investment into a single attribute such that it locks out hybrid approaches is just creating a pseudo- class based system in my view.
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Well.. you really don't need a high will with those numbers :O Most of my non-"full psi" have will 3 and would be not affected so much ;) Plus I think will should have some effect on mana right? It feels weird throwing 3 CCs with a Will 3 character. a regen of 2 would change that or at least make me shoot up in battle.
As for affecting economy, I think it would simply because you'd need boosters in battle. Trying to take on mutants with a lower will would definitely require boosters. Very high will would be unaffected, but I don't think that's such a bad thing. Very high perc generally never had to buy bullets in the beginning, or much ever. We're talking what, 100 charons throughout junkyard? Most of my money was spent crafting armor.
Again, only newbies with very poor builds have big money issues, and why be hard on them? Especially since you'd have to start over if you run out of money and don't have quests. I'd honestly argue that maybe standard ammo should be cheaper. Doesn't affect you or me, but maybe it would affect that guy who just started playing.
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So, unless this has changed I don't think 3 will characters are viable even for hybrid. Damage will be very low and CC will often not work. I remember trying it once and the results were that the stun was almost always resisted. So unless this has changed I don't see 3 will characters being viable as a hybrid if by hybrid you meand just get some "free CC".
As for the regeneration. The whole problem of the new psi system does not passes through the regeneration being to high. Maybe it should be half of what it is but the real problem is the cost of some abillities being far too high. As a psiker you need to have the abillity to spam out some spells before you run out of psi and it must not be limited to the cheap ones either.
As for the early economy. Really there is no such thing as an early economy problem anymore. Withthe starting money you buy some lockpicks, a couple bateries and a haxxor, add a grenade and that's all you need to get past the first mission as a non psiker. The starting bullets and the grenade is a guaranteed win. Just clear the first outposts normally (you even get a crossbow with some bolts if you need to swap weapons). The house where the guy is with the 2 rathounds is dealt with a grenade and the high number of rathounds before it is dealt with blowing up the barrel when they cluster near it. Once this mission is done you have a new better gun and money to spend on anything else you might need.
Let's face it. The old economy system was already gave you too much money, however it was better than the current one. Neither it had the problems of not being able to sell everything nor carrying stuff, but it also didn't gave you as much money. The current one will never be able to actually be balanced for reasons I've gone into already somewhere else. Since money is overly abundant and nothing is going to change reguarding this. You might as well throw out the costs as a balancing factor out the window.
As for early on Psi being more damaging than a gun. Erm, maybe? Once you give the watch to the old man you already got a submachinegun. I doubt anything in Psi you have will do as much as a burst... Also any non psiker build will allowyou spam any type of attacks as much as you like. Your guns aren't likelly to run out of ammo anytime soon. You can throw a variety of grenades. You can have utility things like nets, caltrops and whatnot. You can pretty much spam what you need. Even if you get a cooldown here and there, you still have other options that will do something similar. With Psi however, when you need to use a high cost psi abillity you don't really have alternatives.
If I was to balance out Psi abillities I'd say you need a pool probably twice as big if not more and then lower the psi regeneration. What does this means in terms of balancing? You can to a degree use more high cost psi abillities, but in long drawn out fights which tend to happen with psikers (remeber, good CC, but lower damage than other ways of going at it) you'll need to use boosters in order keep up with the spenditure.
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Well it sounds a bit complicated, and tbh, should the early game really be difficult credit wise? It's bad enough that new players tend to get stuck, as there is no replenishable source of credits.
A little biology and you can make psi-boosters out of mindshroom fluid. Both are easy sells at any pharmacy, one of which is in SGS that usually buys a few of each. The tunnels at the start of the game with the five outposts house a few, with two behind a agility-check mound of stones. Another is Adrenal glands, constant source from rathounds, that make pricey adrenalin and then adrenalin shots that are easy to sell. Even if I didn't make most of the combat drugs for use, they still serve a purpose from the start in selling and making relatively easy credits.
15 biology I believe is all that is needed to distill Mindsrhooms, with the fluid selling for 100ish at the pharmacy. Easy.
Also, if you make your own repair kits, the return investment of them is usually 2-3 times the kits sell cost added to the repaired object.
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How sweet! And where is my "good sir". ??? =(
Lost in translation. )
Sorry, but i must decline your generous offer. (With ~15% hit chance with granade you either miss, or drop it into your feet OR with some luck and save-load you can eventually hit the target.)
Do it in narrow passage, where even if you're drop it on feet, AOE will hit the bot.
And how many psi-busters will you buy with your "start money" ?
With all you can find further - enough for all psi-beetles\bots, if you don't sling lightnings at every cave poppers, and use Quinton's crossbow at rathounds.
What build will have more hard times then pure psi-caster?
Hard start isn't actually a hard, if it lasts a HOUR.
Pistol+Grenades can be superior to the psi-caster build in many situations.
What a load of BSness. What - you kill rathound with 800 crit, and what?
CC+nuke+stunlock=PSI.
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then one approach would be to have a 'psi reservoir' that works like the old non-regenerating system. Your current psi is refilled from that reservoir, at whatever rate is considered balanced (20 per round may be fine under this system). However, when your reservoir runs out, you no longer get the top up each round. Under this set up, psi boosters would work by first refilling your active psi (up to the max of 100 or 115 with appropriate headband) and then whatever was leftover would go to refill the reservoir.
it just was my idea.
Example: psi max = 35 + Will*5; regen = Will*1.5
I like your approach too. I like that not investing in Will chars should spend boosters (money, resources) to get what Will-investing got for free.
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Puh much to read here. With the actual Patch it is possible to play a nice game with that Character? Or is he bad skilled?
Stealth/Sniper and PSI (21):
5 STR
3 DEX
9 AGY
4 CON
10 PER
10 WIL
4 INT
i go for Gun (max), Throw (70), Evasion (max), Stealth (100), Lock and Hacking (65), Mechanic (100), Tailoring (100), Chem (20), Bio (40), Electronics (30), Thought Control (104)
Aimed Shot, Doctor, Hit and Run, Opportunist, PSI Emathy, Recklessnes, Sprint, Interlooper
And if i must redone what would you suggest me for the same Build be Effective? A Stealth Sniper with a bit PSI Or maybe a Assault Gun Heavy Armor Build.
BTW is the game now Balanced enough for a Heavy Armor Melee Build? I mean a BIG FET Armor like Steel Armor and a BIG Hammer?^^
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Game was always balanced for a (shock-) hammer build with agility for sprint and biology for jumping beans, even if it wasn't the best build :D But yes, more specifically there is thick skull and heavyweight feats, specifically designed for that build.
But yeah your character is fine, the new psi stuff really only affects multi-disciplined psi players. L&H is kinda low, though, yours is better off just choosing one rather than half assing both xD
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- Resolve/fortitude is tested against your effective skill level, but they scale from level and attributes. Also NPCs don't have a natural bonus to them unlike to dodge and evasion. This could mean psionic CC is fairly unlike to be resisted even if you have 3 will, but I sure hope that's not the case. :o
Well elekinesis and stasis are irresistable, so there's 2 there :D
In my experience for everything else: psi is "semi-reliable" at synergized 3 will given opponents that are sensitive, somewhere in the 60-80% range. I.e., don't go around t-punching anyone with a fat health bar or fearing a mindreader. Thought control seems to be worse than t-punch as far as resisting.
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Do the Patches changed how attributes work? Thats what i read and understud from underrail Wikki.
STR = affects melee damage and carry capacity
DEX = affects locks, thievery, throwing and initiative. It increases critical strike chance of melee attacks and reduces action point cost of unarmed and light weapons
AGY = affects dodge, evasion, initiative and movement points and stealth
CON = affects health and stamina and prevent or lessen the effects of poisons and diseases
PER = Hit chance with Ranged weapons and detected unvisible targets, hidden rooms
WIL = Hit chance for PSI effects and resist PSI effects
INZ= more Skillpoints every Level Up?
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Cool Dex and Str hah so i dont must go for DEX in my next Sledgehammer Heavy Armor Build good to know. I Plan to make him Focus on STR (12),CON (10) and Agility (10) low PER(4),WIL(3),INT(4), DEX (3). No PSI and other weapons then a Mighty Hammer lol. So should the Stats after 25 i think.
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Oh good you say that i forgot it yes so better DEX i think.
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Do it in narrow passage, where even if you're drop it on feet, AOE will hit the bot.
Okay this is some sort of "solution". I was partly wrong here but with this you can only stun one bot(with guarantee hit i mean), you need to have no electronics(this can/will hit you as well).
Which means this is not the same situation where you have good throwing skill.
With all you can find further - enough for all psi-beetles\bots, if you don't sling lightnings at every cave poppers, and use Quinton's crossbow at rathounds.
That's it! You need to use another weapon(with 0 skill, right?) to start with, you can't comfortably play from the beginning =P
And you can of course say that it will only last "a hour" or "I will punch these angry rathounds by my magnificent fists"...
What a load of BSness. What - you kill rathound with 800 crit, and what?
CC+nuke+stunlock=PSI.
OR you can kill heavy armored guy with this crit! or... Drednought but in 2 hits =(
And if you have 0 psi you are deadman!
And this discussion will never ends cuz you think that psionic user is superior to any other build(well you have said only about pistolet's build) in any situation.
I really can't see a battle where my gun's build will be suffer much more than psi-user. oO
- Unlike all other weapons, they don't need any Will (or even skill) to increase their precision.
- Other weapons need higher than average base ability behind them for adequate precision.
- Resolve/fortitude is tested against your effective skill level, but they scale from level and attributes. Also NPCs don't have a natural bonus to them unlike to dodge and evasion. This could mean psionic CC is fairly unlike to be resisted even if you have 3 will, but I sure hope that's not the case. :o
Sad but True =(
But you still need high will for the best psi feats and Psi-users have their drawbacks too.
- Skill synergies are enough to max them for your level and even save some points - at frigging minimum Will!
????
I gotta mention this. I remember critting for over 1200 once in the previous version with my non-crit test psi build. And for what AP cost? 5. ::) (Tranquility, T-proxy, premed, T-punch, both crits)
Well this is cool indeed but! You used T-proxy and Premeditation(not just T-punch) + you get 2 crits with no crit build(!) and what is the chance of this?
And i was telling about common situation. I can destroy any enemy in 2 hits max(except bladeling - immune to crits)... And how many hits you need to destroy Drednought for ex by psi-user?
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Irrelevant. The topic was psi as secondary skills.
Some people takes Locus of Control even in this case. Right?
1) 1200 damage with 5 AP cost. Nothing else comes anywhere close in terms of damage/AP.
1. This is not regular one. You mentioned that your build is not around crit(chance + damage) than it is very rare situation, right? And with this example you get your abilities on cd.
But that's just how psionics are. With premeditation and tranquility they have ridiculously high anything per AP compared to other weapons. But it isn't a problem - as long as psikers can realistically be expected to take damage in combat encounters (so tranquility won't be too OP) and their burst damage isn't too high.
Maybe but with Tanquility you can't get Psychosis(always pick this one)... And this mean now you have 2 interesting paths:
1. No crit build with lower AP(Tanquility) and Psi costs(with Psionic Mufflers) with better overrall survivability. In this case you even can skip electronics skill.
2. High crit build(Psychosis, Proximal Neuroscopic Filter, Stable Neural Amplifier and Survival Instincts) with higher Psi costs and lower overrall survivability(cuz your HP < 30% very often).
I didn't mean either of those comments to imply any need for changes; they were just observations.
Mb some things will be implemented in the future)
There are too many players who mentioned that psikers are too strong.
I know it's possible to 2-shot dreads (and execute crits can go up to 3.5k easily), but that's not the point. Unless Styg wants to nerf amplified energy weapons.
Why would he do this? =(
Critical Power is high level feat and designed(not solely but) for critical builds.
Amplified energy weapons are not being sold -> you need to invest in electronics heavily.
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I belive Mindless merely means that pure psi builds now are very weak.
The psi build has always rellied on the CC to get the survivabillity and now it cannot relly in CC. The moment you throw 2 CC abillities you are out of psi.
Frankly I don't see where would a psiker get survivabillity right now unless you actually make a it a hybrid where the Psi is merely used to throw some CC around and not your primary combat abillity.
Personally, I wouldn't play a psiker now if I would even play the game. 100 max psi and 50 points per stun is rather abusive.
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I belive Mindless merely means that pure psi builds now are very weak.
No, just telling that the psikers are not overpowered as hell. It's a matter of taste =)
Personally, I wouldn't play a psiker now if I would even play the game. 100 max psi and 50 points per stun is rather abusive.
I thought this way at first but in the practice it's not so bad.
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I dunno, I didn't found the psikers overpowered before. In fact I found sniper and grenades far better and still used assault rifles for a good burst up close if necessary.
Now I find the pure psikers completly meh. Usually you open with as much CC as possible to try and stop as many enemies. After the first 2 CC thrown, you won't throw any more CC during the combat. With no other means of survivabillity aside the CC I don't see psikers being a viable choice... Maybe they will do well in the first missions but as it goes on and gets harder however they don't get any better at CC. Seems very sketchy to me.
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I have a question if i understud the PSI ability description in WIKKI right i can even do mostly successfull CCs with even 3 Willpower. Depends the successrate from CC Effects now realy only on the Skilllevel from the PSI ability. For what is willpower now?
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Is that against the same level or mismatched levels tho epeli? I haven't tested high will builds yet in this version.
Edit: Misunderstood the cc question.
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Aaahh high will means higher Effective Skilllevel so higher success rate for say we Fear and mental. So i can invest in Will or must Invest massive skillpoints in the Thought Control e.g.
So its for a pure PSI Important have high will to spare Skillpoints and for a Hybrid 3-4 Will is enough.
I got it?
Atm i have 150 with my main character and hits against the most targets, whats you Expirience?
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Could someone maybe sum up the course of the thread so far?
I got tired on early page 5 with all those sidebattles about.... stuff.
The one thing I read in actual feedback so far that I could agree on in my tired state is that, in the early game, PSI is essentially an infinite resource and that kinda feels bad.
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Major points of thread:
A)Talks of off-balance psi costs (t-Punch/pyro)
B)Justifications of nerf
C)Discussion of how this alters builds (drop a psi discipline? Use full will? Tranquility or Psychosis?)
D)Flinging poo
E)Discussion of whether the psi amounts should be changed (Will affect psi pool? Psi reservoir to have duel energy/mana system rather than energy alone?)
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Ah, thank you.
Well, I'm all for a system that makes the ecomomy a little more relevant.
Also, Does anyone use Mental Subversion?
And what reason would there be to pick, say, 8 Will?
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I used to use subversion but it's honestly one of those things that is better used against you than to use yourself. TC just isn't that great for damage. 8 Will: none basically. From what I tell the breakpoints for will area pretty much:
3: (good enough for most psi-secondary)
7: (lots of good feats, force user + stoicism)
10: LoC
13: Nearly completely irreesistable
13+ For the absolute pure psyker
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@Epeli
I have 10 Willpower and 150 Effective Thought Control on my Character and my Mental Breakdown fails only against Characters like Eiden the leader from Chort.
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Will Subversion trigger if an NPC is attacked by it's copy? That's the only think I can imagine that might make that feat worth the feat point. And even then it's dubious...
Edit: How about a feat for deliberate not-Psi-users?
-50% Psi and regen, +25% resolve and +5% fortitude? Asking because there's no apparent reason not to use some prionics.
Tried building a mundane tank character, 10 strength,con, 4 will, 7 int, and I feel like investing in kinesis just because I can.... When going all heavy, I can pick the full set of Crafting, and at some point I don't see Chemistry as that raise-worthy. There's no reason to not invest in PSI. -.-
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Will should affect either your psi regen or psi pool. The current numbers are fine for high will (maybe the baseline for 10 will?), but lower will should have significantly lower pool, regen or both.
Yes, it make sense the more I think about it.
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With full tank I generally get enough thought control to one shot dopplegangers simply because they're a pain to run from when you have 0 movement points. And really there isn't exactly much else to spend the skills on, unless you absolutely have to have persuasion.
About feats for non-psi users. There's is actually a consumable like that, mushroom brew, which is now in line with the other foods. But.. not only is it only useful for a single build, light hammer, you also can actually use psi with it heh.
And I agree, it's so weird that heavy armor characters have the most freedom to spec into psi just for lack of other skills needed ;)
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As for 3 will being effective, I think this could be changed by having either
cryostasis be resisted by fortitude or
premeditation having a low will requirement (it's strange that it doesn't actually).
Will affecting psi points won't do much unless 3 will puts you below 50 psi, and even then, there's neurology. It's a step in the right direction sure, I'm just saying it's not going to stop 3 will being the most effective secondary will for any attribute intense builds.
Incidentally, as far as psi regeneration, I've thought about it and if one really wants to make psi boosters useful I think regeneratino would have to be something like:
Psi regen = max (0,(Will - 9 )*4)
So you only start with any regen at all if you're a full on psiker, and it's pitiful, requiring psi boosters in the beginning. This is fine for psi secondaries, or focused psionics with some other tools like grenadier, as a psi booster and default psi makes for well over 150 psi points even with some nerfed max psi. "pure" psionics would have to go full bore into Will, which I think is fair considering how wtf awesome psi is; and even going full will would require boosters, and full psi gear would be a godsens (beetle/head/neurology)
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And most importantly, regen should start at zero. Have it increase for each point of Will above 4. This would fix every single character with 3 will (and even 0 psi skills) using free psi abilities excessively.
Make sense for me... again. )
Right now I throw left and right Telepunch, and in 50% even stun someone, with 0 in all psi skills.
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Maybe have a PSI regen of 5* per turn if under 50%*, +1 for every point of will above 5*, the latter being tripled when above 50%*.
*The values would have to be balanced properly.
It would result in rather mundane chars having a very limited effective PSI pool that for most purposes doesn't regenerate in combat, while high PSI characters will have an interest in not "burning out".
Low Will chars would use PSI boosters to be able to use the better abilities at all, or repeatedly, while high will characters would use PSI boosters to sustain their powers during prolonged fights.
The above could also be reached by having a lower regen bonus per point of will and a feat that regenerates a % of the remaining PSI points, meaning you can easily sustain cheap abilities if that's all you use.
Sadly, the optimal solutions tend to be complex, and I suck at explaining.
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Maybe have a PSI regen of 5* per turn if under 50%*, +1 for every point of will above 5*, the latter being tripled when above 50%*.
*The values would have to be balanced properly.
It would result in rather mundane chars having a very limited effective PSI pool that for most purposes doesn't regenerate in combat, while high PSI characters will have an interest in not "burning out".
Low Will chars would use PSI boosters to be able to use the better abilities at all, or repeatedly, while high will characters would use PSI boosters to sustain their powers during prolonged fights.
The above could also be reached by having a lower regen bonus per point of will and a feat that regenerates a % of the remaining PSI points, meaning you can easily sustain cheap abilities if that's all you use.
Sadly, the optimal solutions tend to be complex, and I suck at explaining.
If that level of complexity is being considered, then I would suggest a reservoir system as probably a lot easier to understand.
The basic problem being fixed here, as I understand it, is throttling how much psi can be spent rapidly in combat. Purely on that metric, 20psi per turn regen isn't really all that bad at any level of Willpower (3 all the way to 10). What needs to be addressed however is the totally free psi regen this enables, particularly for low Will characters.
Keeping a psi total reservoir at the same level as the old psi pool (i.e. before the most recent changes) and then using the 100psi/20psi regen per turn to throttle how quickly you can burn your total psi pool fixes the free psi, because all psi characters would still need to use psi boosters to refill the reservoir. Meanwhile, a Will 3 character would have quite a low psi pool, and be subject to all the limitations as they used to be.
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Maybe then just have each ability lower the PSI pool slightly, less if you have more will, and have PSI-boosters increase it again?
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Hum, this is a tough topic.
I'm fairly sure Cryostasis is already resisted by Fortitude rather than Resolve, it's a physical effect rather than mental effect. Either way, that makes no significant difference on its effectiveness. The question is how easy it is to resist.
Giving Premeditation a Will requirement is an excellent idea, it might just be an oversight that it doesn't.
I'm pretty sure stasis cannot be resisted. I've never seen it happen, and I max at 35 metathermics a lot. I didn't really mean to specify fortitude so much as that it should resist at all.
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Each system has its advantages for the new psi-regen balance but we definetly need two things: Dependence on the level of char and on his Will ability. It's seems quite logical and right for me.
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I see no level to make it dependent on char level. Characters already gain feats and equipment and raise their skill levels. They will eventually raise their will as dedicated Psykers and thus gain a bonus.
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Each system has its advantages for the new psi-regen balance but we definetly need two things: Dependence on the level of char and on his Will ability. It's seems quite logical and right for me.
Yeah, at least for Will.
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Oh, any hints what feats to pick now?
I got 4 Metathermics feats to choose from, all of which are genuinly underwhelming, and then forceuser, mental subversion and Cerebral Trauma.
Currently leaning towards the latter, though I basically never use Neural Overload, just in case I'll need it against spykers in the future.
I've been holding this decision off for as long as I could, but I got everything else. :P (I could pick Stoicism)
Edit: Ah, well, gonna pick them all. There's like 7 more to go till the end :P