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Underrail => Development Log => Topic started by: Styg on March 26, 2015, 04:00:54 PM

Title: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Styg on March 26, 2015, 04:00:54 PM
Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released

Hey guys, the last Early Access/alpha version is here. It's available on Steam now and, as before, it will be available on other platforms as soon as we stabilize it. We are proud to present to you the Institute of Tchort in all its glory, the final urban area of the game. If you want to know more about what's left on our development roadmap, check out the previous dev log.

(http://underrail.com/images/DevLog/Monolith.jpg)

Speaking of changes, we made quite a bit of them, some of which are quite significant for certain play-styles, so we're looking forward to hearing the feedback on those. Of course, we also added lots of new stuff in terms of items and feats. Anyway here's the list (partial list, the other half is in the previous dev log):

That's all for now folks. Enjoy the last alpha update and let us know how you like the new stuff, as well as the gameplay changes we made. We're off now to work at the last bit of the game and, hopefully, come summer, we'll have the full release ready.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: hilf on March 26, 2015, 04:38:24 PM
Congratz on 1000. thread!
Level cap increase, yes!


But too late, Pillars of Eternity has just been released (:
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: LightningMonk on March 26, 2015, 05:02:02 PM
If I didn't know any better, I'd say you were trying to kill me with happiness. Those new feats, those new items, those crafting changes... my mind is in character build overdrive. And here I was thinking of forgoing building a character from scratch for this update since the game has gotten so huge*sigh*. The end is in sight and what a glorious end it's turning out to be. Good luck.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: DMonin on March 26, 2015, 05:07:01 PM
Nice!
Quote
Max player character level increased to 25
Wow...  :o
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Mindless on March 26, 2015, 06:34:56 PM
  • Added EMP grenades Mk II and Mk III
  • Regular tactical vest visual model updated
  • Max player character level increased to 25
  • Base classic kill XP per target level increased slightly
  • Crafting requirements for components scaling with quality lowered to 80% of the original value
  • Removed composition difficulty from many optional component slots
  • Reduced the cost of firing energy pistols (not retroactive, just for new ones)
  • Reduced the fatigue effect duration after adrenaline expires to adrenaline duration + 1 turn
  • Uncanny Dodge - You now dodge 2 + 1 extra attack per 30 dodge; cooldown changed to 6 turns (up from 3)
  • Added scroll bar to crafted item view
  • Items will no longer get equipped when you double click them while holding ALT or CTRL (so you can rapidly alt-click transfer stuff now)
  • Arena enemies will no longer turn their shields off before combat like idiots
Cool ones! +
  • Rathound Regalia mechanical damage reduction changed to 20% (down from 25%) and all heat damage taken while wearing it increased by 100%
  • Burrower Burger, Eel Sandwich and Cave Hopper Steak now grant 1 point in their respective stats (down from 2)
  • Finding psionic headband with an enhancement is now rare and you can no longer find one with two enhancements (you'll have to craft it)
Not cool ones! -
  • Power Management - changed to now always provide 35% extra energy capacity
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! - -
  • Thick Skull - Cannot be stunned, only dazed
  • Critical Power - For each 1% of weapon or unarmed critical damage bonus above 100%, you gain an additional 1.5% critical damage bonus
  • Expertise - Your non-critical firearm, crossbow, and melee attacks deal additional mechanical damage equal to your level.
  • Blitz - Grants you an ability that when invoked will instantly convert all your movement points to action points, granting you 1 action point for each 3 movement points. Cooldown 10 turns.
  • Point Shot - Grants you the ability to perform a quick pistol, SMG or assault rifle attack that costs 50% of the standard action point cost but has reduced precision. Cooldown: 1 turn.
  • Escape Artist - Grants you the ability to remove all immobilization effects. Cooldown: 2 turns.
  • Juggernaut - Total health increased by 25% while wearing armor with armor penalty of 50% or higher.
  • Fast Metabolism - All healing increased by 50% and psi boosters restore extra 25 psi.
Nice Feats! +
  • Rapid Fire - Fire three bullets from any firearm except the sniper. Chance to hit falls drastically beyond optimal range.
I will try this with my .44 Hammerer! Ohohohohoh!
  • Super Slam - An attack with a sledgehammer that does normal damage plus 20% of attacker's maximum health. Cooldown: 3 turns.
How about robots?)
  • Guard - You have 50% chance to block melee mechanical damage equal to twice your strength.
Will be interesting to test in combo with Riot Armor.
  • Gun Nut - Increases the upper damage range of all firearms you create by 20%.
  • Skinner - The quality of leathers counts as if 20% higher in all your crafts.
  • Armor Sloping - Reduces the armor penalty originating from metal plates when crafting armor by 35% (multiplicative).
  • Clothier - The quality of fabrics counts as if 20% higher in all your crafts.
  • Mad Chemist - On-hit effects of chemical pistols you create are twice as strong.
  • Weaponsmith - Knives and sledgehammers that you create have 5% higher critical hit chance.
  • Practical Physicist - Critical damage bonus of energy weapons you create is increased by 25% (additive).
  • Ballistics - Carrier vests give additional 3 mechanical damage threshold when you use them in crafting.
  • Neurology - Psi Headbands you create also provide additional 15 maximum psi points.
And where i will find so many free feat points for this!? =(

P.S. GJ, Styg!  ;D
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Altos on March 26, 2015, 07:04:20 PM
Woohoo!!!!  :D :D :D :D

So many feats, so many updates, so many changes, so many build possibilities, so little time!!!  :P

I don't even know where to start!  ;)
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: epeli on March 26, 2015, 08:19:59 PM
Woohoo!!!!  :D :D :D :D

So many feats, so many updates, so many changes, so many build possibilities, so little time!!!  :P

I don't even know where to start!  ;)

My sentiments exactly! Overwhelming amount of stuff! :D

But I started by going over the feat changes and wow, I was surprised to see you moved quite many feats around. :o
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Fenix on March 26, 2015, 08:35:32 PM
Hahaha! Insanely great job!
Game become better with every update!

But feat balancing may require a lot of work - I can see Fancy Footwork combo with Blitz for high Dex char with bare hands or leather fists. Something like Achilles and the tortoise problem. )

PS Don't dig too dip into PoE. )
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Falloutisgod on March 26, 2015, 08:44:58 PM
Top stuff, looking forward to the final release come summer! :D
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Elhazzared on March 26, 2015, 09:04:37 PM
Reduced crafting skills which is good. Crafing skills to make it more worth. This is a good start. However there still isn't enough of an incentive to invest into intelligence.

Still no option to remove carry weights and vendor limits.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: RonniDeWorm on March 26, 2015, 10:16:05 PM
Congratulations on this new release!
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Banggunner on March 27, 2015, 04:04:21 PM
Level cap increase YESYESYES :D
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: captainmeow on March 27, 2015, 05:31:39 PM

NPCs now use EMP grenades; you've been warned

Plasma Sentry no longer loses the rest of its turn when it switches back into mobile form


oops, missed these on the first read. RIP low CON toons.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Fenix on March 27, 2015, 07:21:28 PM
oops, missed these on the first read. RIP low CON toons.

I don't think so. (c) :)
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: middydj on March 27, 2015, 08:16:44 PM
Very nice update. Great work!
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Greep on March 27, 2015, 09:28:43 PM
Wow thick skull, heavyweight.. heavy armor builds without locus of control might actually be good :O  That opens up a lot!

Goood workan!

Edit: heh.. sure step... the "I can't get past Depot A" feat xD

And neurology... looks like every psi-focused character is getting 7 int.

These new feats are really going to change the way way non-pistol/dex builds work.

Hmmm... I think maybe thick skull should be easier to get?  It kinda sucks that the only players that don't want that are the absolute "never let anyone hit you ever" builds, as this allows light armor characters to not drop dead at a single stun.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: MetaSieg on March 27, 2015, 09:57:38 PM
Gah I don't check the site for a few days and look what happens. Thank God it's the weekend.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Greep on March 27, 2015, 10:19:04 PM
It feels like things are going to get a lot more polarized.  With thick skull, hammer and perception builds don't need LoC for not dropping dead, so they're going to go full guns or full hammer.  For will, you can't afford not having the intp, so they can't afford to go hammer or perception for a backup weapon.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Styg on March 27, 2015, 10:29:51 PM
I think you're a bit overestimating the importance of Neurology. It's far from being mandatory. Sure, it's nice to start a battle with some extra PSI, but after a turn or two, this advantage is gone as this feat does not modify your PSI regeneration.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Greep on March 27, 2015, 10:35:28 PM
Oh I was thinking that psi booster thing was also int.  Yeah I guess not.  But still it does pretty much make 5 int necessary for kickass mufflers :D

Edit: Ah I see, dex also has an immobilize removal.

Also just noticed this from the devlog:

"NPCs now use EMP grenades; you've been warned"

yikes
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Fenix on March 28, 2015, 12:07:56 PM
Also just noticed this from the devlog:
"NPCs now use EMP grenades; you've been warned"
yikes

I want that NPC's AI can trow grenades to targets around a corner.
That will be amazing deal.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Styg on April 01, 2015, 02:50:22 PM
Hotfix 0.1.14.1 released:
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: epeli on April 01, 2015, 06:17:14 PM
Hotfix 0.1.14.1 released:
  • Minimal attack action point cost set to 4 (up from 1)
  • Fancy Footwork can no longer raise your movement points higher than twice your normal maximum
  • Amount of extra action point granted by Blitz limited to 20
>enjoy playing builds with obscene amount of MP even without abusing fast melee + fancy footwork
>blitz is introduced, hey this is pretty neat
>blitz gets nerfed to a free adrenaline shot due to fast melee + fancy footwork
T-thanks Styg :'(

Well, I should have seen it coming. That certainly stops fast melee + Fancy Footwork + Blitz from becoming silly.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Fenix on April 01, 2015, 10:19:22 PM
  • Minimal attack action point cost set to 4 (up from 1)
Cough, cough... This is... rough. :-\
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Mindless on April 02, 2015, 06:17:37 AM
  • Minimal attack action point cost set to 4 (up from 1)
Cough, cough... This is... rough. :-\
Yep, bye-bye super-dex unarmed builds =)
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: hilf on April 02, 2015, 06:50:58 AM
Haha guys, you're so easy to troll. It's just an April Fools joke!

Setting minimal AP cost to 4 is making it 4 times as bad and even Sid Meier/Obsidian balances things by 'just' doubling and halfing them.

Limiting Blitz MP conversion is not bad idea actually but 20 AP is way too low. 50 would not be excessive considering it's cooldown. It would give you extra turn every 10 turns. Now look at Commando perk -  it can potentially give you 'extra turn' every turn (if you use ARs, bursts and kill your target which is now much more likely).

'Fancy Footwork can no longer raise your movement points higher than twice your normal maximum'
Now that's actually a good idea since it does not punish you for having high base MP, prevents FF from giving crazy amounts of MP and keeps Blitz in check.
I hope this one wasn't a joke.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Styg on April 02, 2015, 07:05:53 AM
It's not a joke. While the numbers are subject to change in the future, pending testing and feedback, the limits are necessary to avoid the silly scenarios we previously had.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Greep on April 02, 2015, 07:14:25 AM
Wait is this pre or post lightning punches? I.e. 4 ap or 2?

Well it's 17 attack at 4 ap, so.. doesn't sound too far off anyways.  Stunlocking 8 people with cheap shots is kinda silly.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Mindless on April 02, 2015, 07:51:27 AM
Haha guys, you're so easy to troll. It's just an April Fools joke!
Styg is not joking here  >:(
Setting minimal AP cost to 4 is making it 4 times as bad and even Sid Meier/Obsidian balances things by 'just' doubling and halfing them.
_3_ will be ok)
Wait is this pre or post lightning punches? I.e. 4 ap or 2?
I think it's a hard limit of any ap cost)
Well it's 17 attack at 4 ap, so.. doesn't sound too far off anyways.  Stunlocking 8 people with cheap shots is kinda silly.
17? oO 17x4=68? Sutnlocking 8 people? with 15% chance to incapacitate?
It's easier to throw a flashbang into the crowd =P
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: epeli on April 02, 2015, 08:01:27 AM
How about limiting Blitz AP gains to third of your normal maximum MP?

That way Blitz is kept in check and there's no need to touch low AP costs or Fancy Fotwork.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Styg on April 02, 2015, 08:04:28 AM
How about limiting Blitz AP gains to third of your normal maximum MP?

That way Blitz is kept in check and there's no need to touch low AP costs or Fancy Fotwork.

I didn't tweak the AP costs and FF just because of Blitz, they were a problem on their own as well.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Greep on April 02, 2015, 08:21:41 AM
Haha guys, you're so easy to troll. It's just an April Fools joke!
Styg is not joking here  >:(
Setting minimal AP cost to 4 is making it 4 times as bad and even Sid Meier/Obsidian balances things by 'just' doubling and halfing them.
_3_ will be ok)
Wait is this pre or post lightning punches? I.e. 4 ap or 2?
I think it's a hard limit of any ap cost)
Well it's 17 attack at 4 ap, so.. doesn't sound too far off anyways.  Stunlocking 8 people with cheap shots is kinda silly.
17? oO 17x4=68? Sutnlocking 8 people? with 15% chance to incapacitate?
It's easier to throw a flashbang into the crowd =P

Yeah adrenaline gives 70 ap, so you can get 17 shock fists in at 4 per round.  Given you can then run around a corner and not take any damage because of fancy footwork, doesn't that feel fair?  As far as stunlocking people with 1 ap fists, I bet hilf can tell you what that's like ;)
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: hilf on April 02, 2015, 08:23:08 AM
Hehe yeah i know it wasn't a joke. I was joking myself (:

How about limiting Blitz AP gains to third of your normal maximum MP?

That way Blitz is kept in check and there's no need to touch low AP costs or Fancy Fotwork.

I'm not sure.
Limiting Blitz like that would remove synergy of this feat and FF (if i understood You right) and synergies are good things to have.


Well, lower AP limit for attacks must be changed, attacking for 1 AP is silly. Making it 4 seems too high, however.


Quote
As far as stunlocking people with 1 ap fists, I bet hilf can tell you what that's like
If You can attack for 1 AP You don't care about stunlocking at all :D
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Loriac on April 02, 2015, 08:32:44 AM
My only question about the new minimum ap cost is whether it should be 4ap or 3ap (and I'm just throwing this out there, I don't know which is better really).

Dex 15, lightning punches, tabi boots previously gave an ap cost of 3 for unarmed (10 - 4 - 2 - 1) which now would be bumped up to the min of 4.  Dex 11 I think is the minimum for 3ap reduction on fists, which along with the other factors would hit the minimum 4ap cost.

I'm not sure if this is good or bad to be honest: 4ap / attack = 12.5 attacks per round, 3ap = 16.7 attacks per round.  The real cheese (in my opinion) kicked in when you got down to 2ap.

The upshot is that a pure fists build now has 4 stat points freed up (the additional benefits of going from 11 to 15 dex are much harder to justify when you're not getting the extra attacks per round imo).  Conversely, total damage output has gone down but then again once you factor in feats like expertise its quite possible that combat is unbalanced even at the 12.5 attacks per round level.

Given that other melee weapons gain relatively from this change (e.g. ap reductions from taste for blood are unlikely to be useful now for fist builds), its possible that fist base damage may need to be adjusted to compensate.  Again, I'm not really sure about the full impact here, but I recall that fists used to be considered poor damage relative to other options, and these changes may undo some of the other balancing that was done.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Mindless on April 02, 2015, 08:56:48 AM
Yeah adrenaline gives 70 ap, so you can get 17 shock fists in at 4 per round.  Given you can then run around a corner and not take any damage because of fancy footwork, doesn't that feel fair?  As far as stunlocking people with 1 ap fists, I bet hilf can tell you what that's like ;)
We can't count adrenaline as usual case, only "Self buffs".)
1 ap is horrible i agree with this but even with 1ap you will stunlock 1(cost)*50(ap)*0.15(probab)=7.5(ok 8 people). This is cool indeed! but... you can throw flshbang for this effect(mb lesser not 8 but 6) and only for 15 ap. So stun is not the main case here =P
If You can attack for 1 AP You don't care about stunlocking at all :D
That's the spirit!
Dex 15, lightning punches, tabi boots previously gave an ap cost of 3 for unarmed (10 - 4 - 2 - 1) which now would be bumped up to the min of 4.  Dex 11 I think is the minimum for 3ap reduction on fists, which along with the other factors would hit the minimum 4ap cost.
Dex 15 can be achieved either by lvl 20 or lvl 16 + temp +1 Dex. For fists weapon 3 - min and i can't see the way you can get even lower ap costs... So 3 - is good MIN.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: epeli on April 02, 2015, 09:51:48 AM
I didn't tweak the AP costs and FF just because of Blitz, they were a problem on their own as well.
Alright, sounds reasonable. I think I just realized your reason for quadrupling the min AP cost.

Limiting Blitz like that would remove synergy of this feat and FF (if i understood You right) and synergies are good things to have.
It would be the same as the current system in that regard. Blitz would still convert your current MP, only its limit would be dictated by your normal max MP rather than being static 20.

But it was just a hasty idea I threw around without giving the whole thing much thought.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Fenix on April 02, 2015, 01:32:22 PM
_3_ will be ok)

I think that too, but we need testing.
Even if 4 AP as minimal cost will be unchanged, we at least got rid of one perk - Lightning Punch, because now there is no sense to take it.
I prefer to see the positive side in everything. )

The upshot is that a pure fists build now has 4 stat points freed up (the additional benefits of going from 11 to 15 dex are much harder to justify when you're not getting the extra attacks per round imo).

...or we have 4 stat points, true.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Greep on April 02, 2015, 02:11:38 PM
So... seems like supersteel might be a bit too hardcore, finally got a 150 quality and a 130 quality after 7 tries ;)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/a0uk35.jpg)
(http://i57.tinypic.com/10r69fo.jpg)

Whoos is it kickass when you reinforce it with tichrome.

And with the insulated tichrome helmet coming up that makes immunity to energy and mechanics, 50 dr in fire, as well as ~25 dr in everything but bio :D
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Styg on April 02, 2015, 02:28:31 PM
Yeah... I might have to implement some diminishing returns there. Being completely immune to mechanical damage sounds a bit too op. :)
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Greep on April 02, 2015, 02:31:52 PM
Well, it was actually possible without supersteel by using tungsten, but not possible to get both energy and mechanical until now.  Certainly not immune to w2c, which I've only seen dreads use.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: hilf on April 02, 2015, 05:38:02 PM
Yeah... I might have to implement some diminishing returns there. Being completely immune to mechanical damage sounds a bit too op. :)

This is outright broken. While changing it keep in mind that fast melee weapons and xbows increase mechanical DR by 25% so even 80% DR is enough to negate all of their damage. Well, i didn't actually tested it but this is what description suggests.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: epeli on April 02, 2015, 08:32:25 PM
Yeah... I might have to implement some diminishing returns there. Being completely immune to mechanical damage sounds a bit too op. :)

It has been possible to get >100% mechanical DR for the longest time. It's often been mentioned in forums, I thought you knew of it. :o

This is outright broken. While changing it keep in mind that fast melee weapons and xbows increase mechanical DR by 25% so even 80% DR is enough to negate all of their damage. Well, i didn't actually tested it but this is what description suggests.

Let's talk about the other aspect... enemy resistance. There aren't any completely immune enemies (after all, generated armor pales in comparison with high quality crafted stuff), but encountering 93-95% resistance is fairly common when your weapons incur 125% DR.
(http://i.imgur.com/6F8Bqr8.png)
Poison bolts are the only reasonable way to kill heavily armored organics with xbows.
Dreads? Impossible, your weapon would break before they do.

It's not a huge problem for fast melee since shock melee weapon damage scales with quality, their DPS is much higher (or at least used to be!), and finally they have an alternative tied to the same skill.


But crossbows? They really have become the weakest weapon class over time. Last time they got love was back in 0.1.5.0.

Some things to consider about their role:
- with the new special bullets and chemical/energy weapons, they lose to guns in versatility (which was supposed to be the key point of crossbows)
- yet they deal much weaker mechanical damage (W2C -65% res vs incurred +25% res)
- AND have moving/melee penalties similar to assault rifles
+ low impact speed for shield penetration is great on paper...
- ...but ends up being a gimmick with little real benefit. Anyone can use EMP grenades and the crossbowski often has access to EMP traps as well.

The way things currently are, mechanical damage tends to always be the main component in crossbow damage, despite its limitations. If you encounter something with more than 66% base mech res, it's either poison bolts or skip the fight.
It might be a good idea to make special bolt secondary damage scale with crossbow skill or otherwise tweak them. Pretty much all other options outperform them in one or more ways:
- acid bolts are kind of crap (compare with acid pistols or acid bullets)
- tranq bolts are kind of crap (compare with cryo pistols, cryostasis, mental breakdown or high ql pneumatic strike)
- shock bolts are kind of crap (compare with electroshock pistols, shock bullets or electrokinesis)
- incendiary bolts are kind of crap (compare with incendiary pistols, incendiary bullets or pyrokinetic stream)
- all poison bolts are kind of crap (compare with poisoned throwing knives)

PS. Styg, you promised explosive bolts years ago! And now you've got the mechanics for them in explosive bullets. ;)
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Greep on April 02, 2015, 10:20:44 PM
Well, I think the crossbow is cool as a niche weapon rather than a main weapon, although it should be put under subterfuge if that is the case so as not to confuse newbies.  But I suppose it sucks even at that xD 

Right now without feats to improve special bolt damage it's kind of like a pistol build without any feats or dexterity lol.  It'd be cool if you could craft supersteel bolts that ignore all DR/DT altogether, tichrome bolts that ignore half, and have special bolt damage scale with xbows.

As for DR, I have played cans for the majority of my characters, so the 80 resistance cap implied above is a bit overkill: That would make them worthless all the way until you get supersteel.  There's kind of bad sides to consider either a cap or diminishing returns so it seems like a choose your poison thing: a cap would make high crafting skills much less useful, diminishing returns would make one forced to use fully supersteel for the higher qualities (which might suggest supersteel should be given in 80-130 rather than 70-160).  I guess you could do both?
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: epeli on April 02, 2015, 11:25:25 PM
Crossbows are supposed to be a main weapon. They've just been, er, left unattended for a while. There was a time when melee was worse off. :)

They're behind others but not useless; they're good enough to get you through the game and they still have some aspects where they excel. It's just that the development of other offensive skills has slowly surpassed xbows' designed strengths, so they seem lackluster compared to other weapons even with the new feats.

The idea with slow impact speed weapons incurring extra resistance is that they cannot penetrate armor well, but on the other hand they pass through shields easily. I don't think that's going to change. Also worth noting that crossbows penetrate bulletproof vests better than firearms.


As far as armor goes, I'm not sure how Styg wants the system to play out.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: hilf on April 03, 2015, 05:26:34 AM
- acid bolts are kind of crap (compare with acid pistols or acid bullets)
- tranq bolts are kind of crap (compare with cryo pistols, cryostasis, mental breakdown or high ql pneumatic strike)
- shock bolts are kind of crap (compare with electroshock pistols, shock bullets or electrokinesis)
- incendiary bolts are kind of crap (compare with incendiary pistols, incendiary bullets or pyrokinetic stream)
- all poison bolts are kind of crap (compare with poisoned throwing knives)
PS. Styg, you promised explosive bolts years ago! And now you've got the mechanics for them in explosive bullets. ;)

What?!

Are guns supposed to completely replace xbows?
I don't have much problem with chemical pistols as they needed some more love, but those bullets ...
I bet there are cryo bullets as well.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: epeli on April 03, 2015, 06:03:32 AM
- acid bolts are kind of crap (compare with acid pistols or acid bullets)
- tranq bolts are kind of crap (compare with cryo pistols, cryostasis, mental breakdown or high ql pneumatic strike)
- shock bolts are kind of crap (compare with electroshock pistols, shock bullets or electrokinesis)
- incendiary bolts are kind of crap (compare with incendiary pistols, incendiary bullets or pyrokinetic stream)
- all poison bolts are kind of crap (compare with poisoned throwing knives)
PS. Styg, you promised explosive bolts years ago! And now you've got the mechanics for them in explosive bullets. ;)

What?!

Are guns supposed to completely replace xbows?
I don't have much problem with chemical pistols as they needed some more love, but those bullets ...
I bet there are cryo bullets as well.

Each caliber got a special bullet type in the latest update. They're crafting-only and so far their blueprints are very rare.
You can check them out at the wiki's ammo pages, http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=5mm_Shock_Round

JHP and W2C rounds also got buffed, from +25% dmg to +40% and from -50% resistance to -65%.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Mindless on April 03, 2015, 07:06:42 AM
So... seems like supersteel might be a bit too hardcore, finally got a 150 quality and a 130 quality after 7 tries ;)
Whoos is it kickass when you reinforce it with tichrome.
Nice one!   8)
Yeah... I might have to implement some diminishing returns there. Being completely immune to mechanical damage sounds a bit too op. :)
That's never was the hard task with tung steel oO
Even Energy+Mech(with full set of metal boots, helmet and body armor) was possible with right combination of different "steel's" of high quality(110+)
But crossbows? They really have become the weakest weapon class over time. Last time they got love was back in 0.1.5.0.
Crossbow now is generally dump weapon with some weak feats.
All, yes, all bolts are crap. Sad but true =(
JHP and W2C rounds also got buffed, from +25% dmg to +40% and from -50% resistance to -65%.
I think W2C must be nerfed again) They are too cool %)
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Styg on April 03, 2015, 12:47:05 PM
Hotfix 0.1.14.2 released:
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Mindless on April 03, 2015, 12:52:45 PM
Hotfix 0.1.14.2 released:
  • Player's damage resistances capped at 95%. Some re-balancing will be done in the final version to prevent certain armors from being too OP, but for now this will at least
Noooooooooooo!  :'(
Bye-bye "Heavy Metal" armor build?

P.S. More advantages for light-armored guys! =P
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Greep on April 03, 2015, 01:17:01 PM
95 is doable :D  Was worried it'd be 90 xD That would've been harsh.  Incidentally, just cleared the fort so :P :P :P
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Fenix on April 03, 2015, 05:44:51 PM
Maybe crossbows can be cheap and readily available source of debuffs?
Something like bleeding+MP+AP reduction (with right bolt of course).
Like supersteel bolts with serrated\jagged tips, that have armour piercing effect, descreasind damage resistance, or treshhold?


Also, can we have a quest way to get some unique materials in very limited quantity?
Or devices, or weapon, or chemicals.
For me - it's much, much more attractive and interesting way to obtain something.
It's post-apocalipsis, after all.
Lots of places that were centers of power, abandoned military bases, scientific facilities.

For materials it could be like some kind of automated furnace for smelting (powder metallurgy or something like this), so you should first fix it, then power it, calibrate, find raw materials.
Just an example.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: epeli on April 03, 2015, 06:12:25 PM
Also, can we have a quest way to get some unique materials in very limited quantity?
Or devices, or weapon, or chemicals.
For me - it's much, much more attractive and interesting way to obtain something.
It's post-apocalipsis, after all.
Lots of places that were centers of power, abandoned military bases, scientific facilities.

For materials it could be like some kind of automated furnace for smelting (powder metallurgy or something like this), so you should first fix it, thaen power it, calibrate, find raw materials.
Just an example.

One word: Supersteel. ;)
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Mac Orion on April 03, 2015, 06:44:35 PM
We were talking today how to improve crossbows, most likely we will add more poisons with unique debuffs, from a gameplay aspect its not so bad that crossbows aren't that effective against robots, but yes they are a bit lackluster compared to other weapons. (While testing i had a build with throwing knives and 250 effective throwing skill, doing up to 300 raw crits, at first styg was like well that needs some nerfing, but still having that much throwing is still a niche, crossbows have some nice feats, maybe they get some more interesting once but don't take my word to much to heart)
Would we have a more complex system for stealth and sound, crossbows would have a good place for stealth builds, but that wont happen in underrail, maybe some other project in the future.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Fenix on April 03, 2015, 07:03:40 PM
One word: Supersteel. ;)

Nope? Isn't it some kind of trader, who sell to you something?
I have heard 3 K sharons involved.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: epeli on April 03, 2015, 07:20:37 PM
from a gameplay aspect its not so bad that crossbows aren't that effective against robots
Awww, now we know there won't be big bad faceless robot surprises in Deep Caverns. ;)

Would we have a more complex system for stealth and sound, crossbows would have a good place for stealth builds, but that wont happen in underrail, maybe some other project in the future.
I've probably said this before, but the stealth system in Underrail is already the best isometric RPGs have ever had. It's actually so damn good, it made me wonder if the combat system would be better in its original real-time form - even though I usually loathe RTWP combat! And you all have done a great job on map and enemy encounter design to keep it fun with the current system. </fanboy moment>


One word: Supersteel. ;)

Nope? Isn't it some kind of trader, who sell to you something?
I have heard 3 K sharons involved.
Getting super steel is exactly what you described - a quest way to get some unique materials in very limited quantity, some kind of automated furnace for smelting (powder metallurgy or something like this), so you should first fix it, thaen power it, calibrate, find raw materials.
It's all connected to certain quest and certain huge furnace you probably have already seen and fixed in older versions. Charons are the smelting material, since they're made of super steel.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Mac Orion on April 03, 2015, 07:21:04 PM
Quote
Nope? Isn't it some kind of trader, who sell to you something?
I have heard 3 K sharons involved.

Talk to the guy standing next to gloria at the foundry after finishing the beast quest. (using supersteel infused leather in crafting gives special abilities depending on the item crafted and what leather you use)
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Fenix on April 03, 2015, 08:15:45 PM
Awww, now we know there won't be big bad faceless robot surprises in Deep Caverns. ;)

;D yeah, devs must act like criminals on interrogation. )

Quote
Getting super steel is exactly what you described - a quest way to get some unique materials in very limited quantity, some kind of automated furnace for smelting (powder metallurgy or something like this), so you should first fix it, thaen power it, calibrate, find raw materials.
It's all connected to certain quest and certain huge furnace you probably have already seen and fixed in older versions. Charons are the smelting material, since they're made of super steel.

Well, it's not quite actually what I described.
I meant a slightly different situation - an old abandoned place, where you can get trough various obstacles: live - gunblazing or fangsnapping, dead - mad security bots (or on the contrary reasonable, intelligent and you can become friends later), natural kind - flooded tunnels, collapsed passages etc. Also material better be really rare and unique - something like you can get a canister here and a few - there, and if you have some very high stats - like mercantile, or Will, or raw Strenght, you can get even more.
But we can hold it for Underrail II: Empire strike back. )
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: UnLimiTeD on April 08, 2015, 09:57:26 AM
What a pleasant surprise.
And I was already wondering how I'd spend the two weeks till busy time after my vacation.
This sounds great.
Now we only need a feat or two for drugs, think Witcher 2 or the Flask nodes in Path of Exile or... ah hell, no need to steal from others. ....edit: And a Blood Magic equivalent.  ;D
As for Shroomhead, maybe a buff to PSI/Stun/etc. resistances when near shrooms and after eating one?
The icon somehow reminds me of the trance upgrade in Alpha Centauri for unknown reasons.

Btw, does expertise really grant +1 damage for every hit per level?
So with specops etc, I can fire a full magazine per round at at least +20 damage per bullet?
0.o

As for resistances, is it too late to add diminishing returns?
As in, resistances above 80% are scaled so you'd need 110% resistance (or whatever value is balanced) to reach real 100%, and then still cap it at 95%?
It slightly lessen the impact of high resistances on the likes of crossbows.
And how does Stoicism work with resistances atm? Additive?
You could adopt the PoE terminology, where multiplicative is more/less and additive is increased/reduced.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Greep on April 08, 2015, 10:06:13 AM
Yeah expertise is pretty crazy for smgs atm, although with the assault rifle's concentrated fire, ARs remain best on heavy armor builds.  Stoicism is almost definitely the same type of reduction as conditioning, don't know why it would be different (additive with feats/abilities, feats/abilities multiplied with equipment)
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: epeli on April 08, 2015, 10:36:42 AM
What a coincidence, I just did a bit of SMG testing.

Of course I'm testing ridiculous extremes (why bother with anything less? :P), so I went with 16+1 dex, two Muzzled 5mm SMGs, Spec Ops, Blitz and Expertise.
You get up to 9 bursts per round with blitz and adrenaline (4-5 bursts for "normal" turns after that since you have to sacrifice a burst every second turn to reload both SMGs), 7 bullets per burst, 63 bullets per turn. 1575 dmg from expertise alone in a single turn. On enemies with no mechanical resistance, you can deal about 3k damage in a single turn.

Not a good or even a practical build, but hilarious nonetheless. Keeping your weapons fed isn't so funny, though. Not the slightest chance of ever having enough W2C/JHP for a single turn.

Assault rifle builds are much better for practical gameplay, and then there are amplified energy pistols with crit power... 0.1.14 did a lot of crazy things.


edit:
And how does Stoicism work with resistances atm? Additive?
You could adopt the PoE terminology, where multiplicative is more/less and additive is increased/reduced.
I also like PoE (Path of Exile, not Pillars of Eternity!) terminology for that particular reason, everything was very clear. But it would not all that useful for Underrail. The various multiplier stacking mechanisms aren't like PoE's.

I might be wrong about all this, so hopefully Styg reads this and corrects me if so.

Here's how it works: Different effects stack multiplicatively. Multiple sources of same effect stack additively.

And in this case, there's just two different types of effects: resistances (armor) and reduced damage taken (stoicism, conditioning, lifting belt, morphine, modifiers on certain armor types, etc).

So if you're at <16% health (21% stoicism), have lifting belt (10%), have conditioning at 15 con (20%) and take morphine (50%), you are immune to mechanical damage.

Other examples:
Hypertoxicity (increases poison damage you deal) and cave ear poison (increases bio damage target takes) - different effects
Opportunist (increases your damage) and Vile Weaponry (increases damage target takes) - different effects
Bone Breaker and Vile Weaponry (both increase damage taken by target, although one is damage-type specific and the other not) - same effect
etc.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: UnLimiTeD on April 08, 2015, 12:26:23 PM
So does it make more sense to upgrade strength to use full auto, or dex to make the actual bursts cheaper?  :P
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Mindless on April 08, 2015, 12:32:52 PM
So does it make more sense to upgrade strength to use full auto, or dex to make the actual bursts cheaper?  :P
Dex for SMG's and STR for AR's =)
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: epeli on April 09, 2015, 01:37:53 AM
Full-auto is no-brainer for assault rifles. There aren't many reasons to use SMGs if you have the str for rifles. And if you have a max dex build, you probably can't afford the str.

Commando is also much better for assault rifles since their bursts are much stronger (higher base damage, muzzle brake, full-auto, concentrated fire) but they get less of them. SMGs really don't need that one extra burst, they already have too much.

Muzzle Brake on weapon is a no-brainer for both.

Rapid Reloader is also excellent, but I figured it would be too much for my particular build. (Read: I couldn't find any and didn't want to start savescumming.) If you have max dex and blitz, you could get too many bursts, up to 11 per turn. Normal 5mm SMG magazines can only handle 8 full muzzled bursts without reloading or 10 with XM.


I honestly thought max dex SMG character would've been totally out of line with expertise and muzzle brakes, but I guess not. Barely doing a third of the damage/AP certain other builds can do, with easy-to-resist small numbers of mechanical damage, and at unsustainable ammo cost. It's still stupidly powerful compared to what the same character could do in previous versions though. Expertise about doubles your damage, muzzle brakes are a 40% increase on top of that and Blitz got me 2 extra bursts.

Ammo availability (and magazine capacity to a lesser extent) keep high dex SMG builds in line very nicely, no matter how many bursts you can get per turn. Vendors couldn't keep up with my ammo demands before, now they haven't got the slightest chance.

In conclusion, SMG Expertise builds are surprisingly balanced even when taken to their extremes.


PS. Blitz sucks with the limited conversion. Any character meeting its 10 agi requirement will have more MP than it can use. ???
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: Styg on April 09, 2015, 08:03:22 AM
And how does Stoicism work with resistances atm? Additive?
You could adopt the PoE terminology, where multiplicative is more/less and additive is increased/reduced.
I also like PoE (Path of Exile, not Pillars of Eternity!) terminology for that particular reason, everything was very clear. But it would not all that useful for Underrail. The various multiplier stacking mechanisms aren't like PoE's.

I might be wrong about all this, so hopefully Styg reads this and corrects me if so.

You got it right and here indeed I use similar terminology to PoE - resistance and reduction. When character is hit (let's ignore shields and blocking, it's not relevant), the damage is first reduced by resistance (or threshold if that's more effective) unless it's meant to ignore resistance (poison). After that, it's modified "damage taken reduction" (which can also be positive causing you to take more damage); and this happens regardless of whether the attack ignores resistance.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: UnLimiTeD on April 09, 2015, 04:01:28 PM
Will critical Power and heavy weight stack?
And does Heavy Punch now have a minimum cost of 8?
Edit: And does Rapid Fire count as a single attack for the Gunslinger Crit boost?
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: captainmeow on April 09, 2015, 04:24:35 PM
Will critical Power and heavy weight stack?

It stacks with sharpshooter so I see no reason why it wouldn't with heavyweight.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: hilf on April 09, 2015, 04:40:42 PM

Assault rifle builds are much better for practical gameplay, and then there are amplified energy pistols with crit power... 0.1.14 did a lot of crazy things.


When reading changelog i was under impression that Styg wants everything to be ultra powerful now.

But then he nerfed fast melee ... and Blitz.
Too bad SMG bursts are not affected by new minimum attack AP cost.

Quote
And does Heavy Punch now have a minimum cost of 8?
Yes.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: epeli on April 10, 2015, 12:51:27 AM
Will critical Power and heavy weight stack?
And does Heavy Punch now have a minimum cost of 8?
Edit: And does Rapid Fire count as a single attack for the Gunslinger Crit boost?
Yes. Critical power increases your critical damage bonus, no matter where it comes from.
Yes.
Gunslinger doesn't have crit boost, did you mean Steadfast Aim? If so, read the feat description. It is based on the weapon's base AP cost.

When reading changelog i was under impression that Styg wants everything to be ultra powerful now.

But then he nerfed fast melee ... and Blitz.
Too bad SMG bursts are not affected by new minimum attack AP cost.

That's exactly the impression I got from testing some builds. I guess there's at least one more balance hotfix coming for this version. I'm guessing some of the strongest offensive options will be toned down and psi pool or regen will be tied to Will.

PS. SMG bursts are affected, too :P It would now be possible to get AP cost 3 with SMGs.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: hilf on April 10, 2015, 05:05:48 AM
PS. SMG bursts are affected, too :P It would now be possible to get AP cost 3 with SMGs.
Hmm, i don't think i understand... unless Styg have listened to the crowd and lowered min AP cost to 3.
Title: Re: Dev Log #38: Version 0.1.14.0 released
Post by: epeli on April 10, 2015, 05:32:46 AM
PS. SMG bursts are affected, too :P It would now be possible to get AP cost 3 with SMGs.
Hmm, i don't think i understand... unless Styg have listened to the crowd and lowered min AP cost to 3.
All attacks (not just melee) are capped at 4 AP, so it also affects SMGs. You can't get a burst under 8 AP. Without the limit, you could get 3 AP normal shot -> 6 AP burst.